Work on a new 5th generation Camaro, though GM will tell you different, began about two years ago in almost a skunkworks fashion. It was a difficult task for GM to perform in secret especially during the acrimonious final year of the fourth generation Camaro. GM constantly referring to the Camaro being on "Hiatus" is a sure sign that they were not fully giving up on the Camaro. Initial work was largely marketing studies, seeing what potential Camaro buyer must have, would like to have, and defiantly don't want. This kind of research is done before engineering and design on a new car program. Camaro is the 3rd most recognized name in GM's portfolio, and it has understandably become notion at GM that it had to come back. The current team working on the new Camaro is pushing to build a car that will be appealing not only when it's released, but 5-7 years later (as far out as 2015!). That means for the most part that retro is out, which is good for Bob Lutz, who dislikes such design to begin with. GM does not want another T-bird or new Beetle, as their sales do not hold up well over time. Initially in the development process, Cadillac's Sigma platform was considered the leading architecture for which to base the new Camaro. Several issues however came up with this choice, the first one of which being the cost of the Cadillac platform which was not designed with Chevrolet prices in mind. Secondly, the Sigma platform has a very high cowl (commonly called firewall) height that was made as a concession for the Cadillac SRX Crossover. This however is not ideal for a low slung sports coupe and would be very expensive to impossible to correct. This realization occurred at about the same point GM discovered Holden. In importing the GTO, GM realized that Holden had expertise and efficiency in designing affordable rear wheel drive cars that they could only wish to have. When they signed a 3-year agreement with Holden to build the GTO, they also had an eye on the future, and an American made GTO. It seems Holden was already developing a successor to the V-chassis that the Monaro, GTO, and Commodore are all built on dubbed VE. The VE chassis (as Holden calls it) is sort of a hybrid Sigma/V-car design with most of the Sigma's structure mated to V-Car suspension elements. This new design is being engineered to be fully compliant with US laws and will be built in one or two US factories beginning 2005-2006. It is Holden's manufacturing system which allows for several cars to be built in one factory that is the cornerstone to GM's plans. Currently they build 20 variants of the V-car in one factory down under. This setup GM hopes in the US will allow for a Buick to build say a $45,000 Lexus fighting sedan on the same line a $20,000 V6 Chevy Camaro. The US version of the VE chassis is currently being called Sigma-Lite or Sigma-Mass among those in the know, however GM has yet to give it an official name. The chassis debuted just this week as the Opel Insignia concept, proving how far it is along in development. The VE will also underpin the next GTO which will be made in the US in 2007. This new VE-based GTO is said to be lower, wider, and more aggressive than the current V-car based version according to those who have seen it. Expect the new GTO to be more identifiable as a GTO, while being a fully modern (non-retro) design. I believe the Insignia concept shows the low slung rounded look that will be the signature of this platform.
Now what does all this mean for the Camaro? Well since it was decided that the GTO would be redesigned and built stateside, Chevy has been in the game developing a coupe for themselves as a counterpart. Common notion was that this car would be a Chevelle, since it has historically been the GTO's platform sibling. This speculation was recently fired by the fact that Chevy recently trademarked the Chevelle name again. In fact, for a few months there were questions in GM concerning what the new Chevy coupe would be called as some wanted it to be a Monte Carlo, some a Chevelle, and the majority wanted a Camaro. GMI has learned that the Chevelle rumors really never had any muscle behind them, especially after GM was roasted alive by GTO enthusiasts over the 2004 car, Chevrolet has become worried about getting the same reception over a reborn Chevelle. Cementing the name of the new Chevrolet coupe was ironically the Mustang concept at the 2004 NAIAS. Upon first site it gave Bob Lutz a case of the "I wants", and pretty much cemented that any coupe that comes from Chevrolet will be have to first be a Camaro.
Its also noteworthy that we've learned that the new Camaro will not be the same size as the GTO, as the highly flexible chassis allows for different proportions among car models. Think of it as a GTO on a diet with some dimensional excesses removed. Our sources assure us that no one will mistake a Camaro for a GTO both in size or appearance. This new 5th Gen Camaro is currently on a timeline for a 2007 model year introduction, provided that no unexpected obstacles fall in it's path. GM's maze of new model concept approvals is staggering, and the new car does not have the final stamp quite yet. However it should be noted that at this point neither does the 2007 GTO, and that this is normal in the approval process for vehicles this far out. This final approval by GM's Product Planning Board does not occur until the car is within about two years of going into production. In short, if the 2007 GTO becomes reality (which we all know will happen), then a 2007 Camaro almost certainly will to.
GM was quite proud of the fact that the Camaro was the fastest pony car during it's final years and is willing to grow to great lengths to ensure it picks up where it left off. GM can match the Ford Mustang step for step horsepower wise with it's superior powertrain unit. GM's engines are cheaper and make more HP/Dollar than their respective Ford units despite the false generally held notion they are low tech. Power will likely come in three flavors, base V6, medium V8, and high end V8. The base V6 will likely be a high-value 3.5L (200HP) or 3.9L (230HP) engine. Expect GM to match the Mustang in V6 performance, but not exceed it. It is important that GM save costs on the V6 Camaro as it will likely be among the cheapest cars built on the whole Sigma-Lite platform. Though V6 buyers care about performance, cost and value seem to take more precedence in this segment. As much as people would like a 3.6L 255 HP high feature V6, it's not likely due to its much increased cost. They do however, plan to offer a bolt on version of the supercharger used on the 285HP 3.5L that will show up in the 2005 Pontiac G6 to the general public through dealers. Contrary to some rumors, a 4-cylnder is not in the plans as it does not fit the image Chevrolet wants for the new Camaro. For a mid-level V8 expect either a 320 HP 5.3L or a 340HP detuned version of the Corvette's 6.0L LS2 base engine.The 5.3L is the less likely of the above mentioned engines to get the nod because we are unaware of any plans to certify it for car use, a road the 6.0L is well down. For all intents the 5.7L is dead as the new Corvette will use a 6.0L engine in it's place. This mid-model is likely to carry the Z28 designation which will upset some Z28 enthusiasts, but follows the line with the Camaro's recent history The top level V8 likely to again be called SS will also most likely be the 6.0L LS2 directly from the base Corvette. This engine making probably 10-20 HP less than in Corvette trim will make in the area of 390HP. The decision to use the SS designation follows GM recent trend of using the designation of the top performing car for each model. The car will also probably have some kind of affiliation with GM Performance Division. It is well known that Holden is designing it's new VE cars to use 6 speed automatic transmissions, making them an obvious choice for the SS 5th Gen Camaro. The 6-speed automatic is actually simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a 5 speed design. There are rumors that team Corvette badly wants a paddle-shift setup to come from this design, but is exploring all options. This new transmission will be made at GM's Willow Run plant that currently makes the 4L80-E and 4T80E transmissions. Four or Five Speed Autos will be used in lesser models. There will also be a 6-speed manual offered for those who wish to shift on their own. On the outside the new Camaro will be lower and more seductive than the current GTO. It will also feature styling elements from the SS Concept of this year. People familiar with the new car claim it has a chrome bar concurrent of newer Chevrolets, however that element is very much in limbo. Naturally, the interior will be fully modern keeping in line with the GM's recent achievements. Interiors have been a hot topic on the auto scene the last few years, and GM understands that the Camaro needs to hit a homerun to succeed. Ergonomics will be inherently better that the 4th Gen cars simply due to the better design of the new chassis. Basic features debuting on cars such as the 2004 Malibu are sure to be considered for the new car, such as remote start, Displacement on Demand, and XM and MP3 Capable radios. It is actually cost effective for GM to include such features in the new car because they were already included in the overall architecture design which will be the structure for more expensive cars. The new car will also include ABS and a revised traction control system that will make the Camaro an all weather car. In reality anything is possible, because Sigma -Lite will be so widely used, pretty much all of GM's parts bin of options will be engineered to work with it, making the cost to include them in a Camaro negligible, What all of this means is that the Camaro will receive levels of options and refinements that was never imaginable, because it rides on a platform designed to for cars that cost much more. Things such as roll up windows and manual locks will not even be considered because it is cheaper to just include the power options than do the engineering to include manual options. Higher end versions may include features such as On-Star that are highly profitable and compact enough to not hurt performance. If GM thinks that people will pay for it, GM will likely include it. This is great for buyers of the top level Camaro will get much more for their money than they did with the 4th Generation. Speaking of price, expect GM to price the Camaro similar to the 4th Generation Camaro, slightly more than a Mustang of comparable price.
If Ford decided to chase the Corvette with a 500HP Cobra, don't expect a Camaro to chase it. GM feels that the Corvette will do a good enough job of disposing with the challenge. The price spread could likely run from about $20,000 to $37,000+ (In 2007 dollars) for a 400 HP fully-loaded Camaro. Considering in 2002 a base V6 Camaro started at $19,000, this is not much of a price increase. GM thinks it can sell a 110,000 units a year at this pricing through tapping such markets as past buyers, well off twenty and thirty something males, buyers put off by the retro Mustang, and in general anyone looking for amazing performance at a Chevrolet price. GM has committed itself to making the Camaro not only faster and better than the Mustang, but quite possibly on of the best performers in it's price range.
Though this article is a representation of the current state of the new Camaro to the best of our knowledge, please remember the car is three years from hitting showrooms and some details may change. When the wraps come off the 2007 Camaro it will bring an end to what has been a classic struggle within GM to keep one of it's classic nameplates viable in an ever changing market. Though there have been many people pushing for this new car within GM at various levels for the last 7 years, few on the outside will ever understand the hard work and struggle that went into bringing a new car to light. However, Rest assured however, the new car is one that will be worthy of the Camaro name, and more importantly, one that people will buy!"
Posted by Hot Rod (Member # 1921) on :
As i said in many other forums. . . I'm buying a cobra.
Posted by Brian's 01 SS (Member # 1499) on :
ooohhhhh, gooodyyyyy. I will start saving now for my first Berger SS.
Almost 400 ponies. WOW Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
If an SS is offered I'll be in line to purchase the 5th gen. Posted by Steve da Wrench (Member # 1301) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hot Rod: As i said in many other forums. . . I'm buying a cobra.
Great........... so if you are so set on getting a Cobra.... why dont you, and why are you still here?? JMO
Posted by 30AnnySS (Member # 1985) on :
[/QUOTE]Great........... so if you are so set on getting a Cobra.... why dont you, and why are you still here?? JMO [/QB][/QUOTE]
I agree.
Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
That is great news on the Camaro if true. I'd sure love to hear from the FBodFather about this though. Maybe GM will pull the "Gag Order" and let him discuss this soon??????
-Bone
Posted by GETGONE (Member # 2086) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bonequark: That is great news on the Camaro if true. I'd sure love to hear from the FBodFather about this though. Maybe GM will pull the "Gag Order" and let him discuss this soon??????
-Bone
At the last saleable Camaro presentation he was joking about the bidding on the car taking so long he thought he'd have a 5th generation Camaro out before it was done. I thought he was just teasing, but maybe was just hinting at the future. I just hope it's true and it isn't as ugly as the rest of GM's offerings of late.
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
I sure hope it happens....and soon too. My hair is already pretty grey and I would rather it not be snow white by the time a new Camaro is introduced! Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
I heard late last week from a Senior Editor at Autoweek concerning this. There may be something to this if Autoweek is hot on the trail. I know GM doesn't want to hurt GTO sales before they even start, but a 400-hp Camaro will hold some enthusiasts off for while. Go get 'em Autoweek! -Bone
Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
...then I got this response from Chevy when asked about the new Camaro...
"We appreciate your interest in the Chevrolet Camaro.
General Motors’ plans for the future are exciting. We wish we could share those plans with you, but it is traditional in the automotive industry to keep all details confidential until the public announcement is made.
D.D. Criss Customer Relationship Manager Chevrolet Customer Assistance Center"
Well, at least they didn't say there weren't any plans for a new Camaro!
-Bob
Posted by SSHEETS (Member # 1989) on :
Tears in corners of both eyes...could it be true?
If only Scott could talk freely...and speaking of, I wonder if Luts is smart enough to put Scott in a leadership role on the Camaro team?
[ 22. September 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: SSHEETS ]
Posted by Rhode Island Red (Member # 220) on :
I'm happy with the hawk... If I want more power than the 2007 Camaro... I will start saving up for a 396 stroker package for my LS1... then slap on a blower... I'd be happy for a while then
All I know they are transferring the Camaro (Assuming this rumor has some basis in reality)name to a new car, and a new platform.... I just hope it lives up to the name Camaro, and it sells LOTS of them... I'd hate to see it die again due to bad sales
[ 22. September 2003, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Rhode Island Red ]
Posted by BullSSeye (Member # 1589) on :
A 400 HP Camaro with all the niceties of the higher end cars would be awesome.
However, an interesting factor I gleaned from the article is the part about the 500 HP Cobra. If Ford produces a 500 HP Cobra, whether the Vette dipatches it or not, it'll be the performance bang for the buck of the century. Even in the mid $40K price range, it'll still be far cheaper than anything else on the road with that much power under the hood. The 5th gen sounds pretty hot. And I'm sure the performance will be stellar. But if Ford produces a car intent on taking out a Vette and it ends up being priced similar to the current Cobra (inflation assumed), it would be difficult to pass it up... At least for power hungry folks like me.
Posted by KenC (Member # 189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hot Rod: As i said in many other forums. . . I'm buying a cobra.
so?
why not pack up your household goods and move on into a ford site then?
Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
A 500-hp Mustang in reality would sell for something far closer to $50,000 than $40,000. In that price range if they want to go after the corvette I say let them have at it. It would improve both cars.
If it's a $25,000 400-hp Camaro you want, there's a much bigger market there. Much bigger. Honestly, if I WERE ever able to spend $50K on a car, it would never be a Mustang. -Bone
Posted by BullSSeye (Member # 1589) on :
Yeah, that's why I threw in the caviat "if".
Because a 500 HP Cobra would be great and all, but if the car ends up costing close to a Z06, you'd be wiser to spring for the Z06. Or better yet, a $28K Z28 with a blower bolted on. But if the Cobra ends up costing close to the current model, you'd be hard pressed to find a comparable bargain.
Ford will also likely be using FI and possibly more displacement to boost the power. If so, you can imagine the bolt on frenzy that will take place soon after. Posted by Jana (Member # 2029) on :
Oh how happy this makes me. (if indeed it is true) Maybe by 2007 I'll make enough money to be able to buy one. (yeah right! I'd have to draw a lot of pictures to make that kind of money ) I love that early 4th gen look,.....the next Camaro better not be boxy....they better make it nice, curvy, and aerodynamic,...just the way I like em.
[ 24. September 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Jana ]
Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
...from a Sept. 13th article published in the Detroit Free Press concerning the new Opel concept car unveiled in Europe....."Lutz would not say what GM calls the new architecture, referring to it simply as "a premium rear-wheel-drive architecture that will be used worldwide."
It could form the basis for cars, for example, ranging in size from the Mercedes-Benz midsize sedan to the limousine-like Mercedes S-class, he revealed.
As many as four or five of GM's brands could get V8-powered vehicles based on the architecture, he said, including Chevrolet, Pontiac, Opel/Vauxhall in Europe and Holden in Australia.
The first cars based on the architecture are expected to go into production in North America in 2005 or 2006.
While the Opel Insignia concept car is about the size of GM's Sigma architecture, which is the basis of the Cadillac CTS sedan and SRX crossover wagon, the new architecture was developed to cost less than those luxury cars, Lutz said.
"It could be used for Pontiacs or Chevrolets," he said, but it could include high-cost components like all-wheel drive, a six-speed automatic transmission and magnetic-rheological suspension" that quickly senses and reacts to changes in the road surface for premium cars such as the Opel concept."
Behold the platform for our new Camaro......
-Bone
Posted by poSSum (Member # 119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jana: ....they better make it nice, curvy, and airodynamic,...just the way I like em.
Think able to cruise effortlessly at 150 MPH for an hour Posted by Chief Strobel (Member # 2078) on :
I would love to see a 1st Gen look brought up to 07 standards.
Posted by Daves2002SS (Member # 1719) on :
Don't expect GM to build a 500 HP Camaro........AWWWWW!!!!! So I guess that LS7 I have been hearing so much about is out of the picture. Well I guess 390-400 will be a good starting point in 2007, a few years behind the 2003 390 HP Cobra but oh well, GM needs some time to catch up after being out a while. I'm not too sure if I'll be in the market for a Camaro in 2007 but I'll see, I just might have to check it out.
Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
It says you have to register!
Posted by Bonequark (Member # 1923) on :
sorry about that....
GM considers global family of rwd V-8s Pontiac, Chevrolet would get mid-sized cars in three years
By Rick Kranz Automotive News / September 15, 2003
Opel's V8-powered rear-drive Insignia offers a glimpse at Opel's future design. PHOTO: JOE POLIMENI Opel Insignia
Vehicle type: 5-door hatchback Engine: 344-hp 5.7-liter V-8 What's cool: Who would have thought that a raw Corvette engine could be at the heart of such an elegant European? Clever features include a cooler for champagne bottles and a humidor for cigars, both positioned between the front seats. Passenger doors are rear-hinged. Production possibility: It has passed the first smell test, says Hans Demant, Opel board member Show reaction: An overwhelming thumbs up
Related Links
2003 Frankfurt motor show coverage
FRANKFURT -- General Motors is expected to decide by year end whether to build a range of V-8 powered, rear-wheel-drive cars in North America.
One model could be exported to Europe for Opel, which displayed a concept version - dubbed the Insignia - at the Frankfurt auto show.
Hans Demant, vice president of engineering for General Motors Europe, said here last week that cars developed from the proposed architecture could be on the street in three years if the business case is approved.
"The next step is to say realistically, how much volume can we assume?" Demant said. "How would we do that vehicle? Where would we get the component sets? What would it look like, and where would we build it?"
The new mid-sized cars would meet growing demand for rwd cars in the United States. Under the plan, Chevrolet and Pontiac would get models in three years or so.
The proposal is part of GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz's efforts to get GM's global family to share product investments, components and vehicles.
For example, Holden - GM's Australian unit - is exporting the 2004 Pontiac GTO to the United States for sale around Dec. 1. Holden also developed the architecture for the Insignia, which features a version of the Chevrolet Corvette's 5.7-liter V-8. But the Insignia is not related to the Pontiac GTO.
Opel needs a strong replacement for its flagship sedan, the Omega. At the Frankfurt show, GM's European subsidiary tested press reaction to a possible replacement. Said Demant: "The car passed its first 'smell' test."
North America or Europe?
GM still is considering a host of issues. For example, the Opel Insignia could be assembled in North America - or Europe if Opel believes Insignia volume would be high enough.
The automaker must decide whether the architecture should be engineered for one wheelbase or several. GM also must determine how much sheet metal, if any, would be shared among the vehicles.
Lutz, vice chairman of product development, said the plan to provide cars for North America and Europe "would permit members of the GM family around the world to participate in the market for rear-wheel- and all-wheel-drive cars without having to make an investment that for themselves would be prohibitive."
Cars produced off the rwd architecture would be premium models but presumably slotted below Cadillac's rwd cars. The base price of the 2004 Cadillac CTS is $30,385.
GM's high-volume cars would continue to have front-wheel drive, Lutz said.
Combined world volume for the cars could be about 200,000 units.
Rear drive momentum
If GM approves Insignia assembly in the United States, the Opel vehicle would follow a pattern announced recently for Saab.
The 2006 Saab 9-7X SUV is being developed off the Chevrolet TrailBlazer platform. GM will assemble it in the United States and export some of them.
GM's enthusiasm for Insignia signals growing enthusiasm industrywide for rwd cars in the United States.
In 2004, for example, the Chrysler group will introduce a range of full-sized rwd Chrysler and Dodge cars.
Those vehicles will share transmissions and electrical architectures with the Mercedes-Benz E class. Chrysler plans to export some to Europe, starting in late 2004.
Also, Cadillac is expanding its new generation of rwd vehicles.
The Cadillac SRX sport wagon went on sale in August.
GM started shipping the Cadillac XLR two-seater to dealers two weeks ago.
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