That was the title of a "60 minutes" chapter I just got finished watching.
Long story short, after Saddam's government fell, Karbala (sp?) thought they'd get the jump on the gun for democracy by electing their own town leaders and police force. To their dismay, the U.S. military came and disarmed the police, imprisoned town leaders (one has yet to be charged with anything), and is hunting down a people's representative. And they installed Baath party members into the police force and town leadership! The very people who used to arrest innocent people under Saddam's regime, are now back in power under the U.S. imposed local government. Wow! Any rate, they went to this prison that the arrested town leader was being held and asked about him. At first, when they didn't know who the imprisoned leader was, they talked freely about how everyone gets visits and can talk to lawyers, and no one was held there that hasn't been charged. They found the guy, and said that he was "in processing" and hasn't been charged yet. Then the warden was told by higher ups to quit talking to 60 minutes and not to discuss anything further with them.
I realize 60 minutes only gives you little snippets of information in a short piece, spun in a way that MAY be considered liberal, but it didn't take a left or right winger to witness the actions of the U.S. military prison warden backing up the truck and ask the cameras to be turned off, and basically went mum about this town leader who had yet to be charged. And they call it freedom? Now, I'm not so sure. I may have to rethink my posistion about the motives of the military in the restoration of peace in Iraq. Obviously it will take more investigation than this one news tidbit, but it definitely made me take notice.
This disturbs me, and if that is actually going on there, it would go against my fundamental beliefs. I'm not blind to the fact that stuff like this goes on here and there, but I couldn't believe what I was seeing that it was actually documented how badly the military was acting.
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by el ess1: That was the title of a "60 minutes" chapter I just got finished watching.
Long story short, after Saddam's government fell, Karbala (sp?) thought they'd get the jump on the gun for democracy by electing their own town leaders and police force. To their dismay, the U.S. military came and disarmed the police, imprisoned town leaders (one has yet to be charged with anything), and is hunting down a people's representative. And they installed Baath party members into the police force and town leadership! The very people who used to arrest innocent people under Saddam's regime, are now back in power under the U.S. imposed local government. Wow! Any rate, they went to this prison that the arrested town leader was being held and asked about him. At first, when they didn't know who the imprisoned leader was, they talked freely about how everyone gets visits and can talk to lawyers, and no one was held there that hasn't been charged. They found the guy, and said that he was "in processing" and hasn't been charged yet. Then the warden was told by higher ups to quit talking to 60 minutes and not to discuss anything further with them.
I realize 60 minutes only gives you little snippets of information in a short piece, spun in a way that MAY be considered liberal, but it didn't take a left or right winger to witness the actions of the U.S. military prison warden backing up the truck and ask the cameras to be turned off, and basically went mum about this town leader who had yet to be charged. And they call it freedom? Now, I'm not so sure. I may have to rethink my posistion about the motives of the military in the restoration of peace in Iraq. Obviously it will take more investigation than this one news tidbit, but it definitely made me take notice.
This disturbs me, and if that is actually going on there, it would go against my fundamental beliefs. I'm not blind to the fact that stuff like this goes on here and there, but I couldn't believe what I was seeing that it was actually documented how badly the military was acting.
As a military member and Operation Iraqi Freedom veteran, I feel obligated to respond to your post.
These shows and opinions (posts) disturb me, not that they are true or false, but they are one-sided. Ask yourself this question. Do you think 60 minutes or any news program would do a complete story as to what else is going on in Iraq? Would the opening of all hospitals in Iraq (more than what was open prior to the war) or the restoring power plants (to current world standards, and not the rigged Iraq junk that it was) the rebuilding of schools, etc. Do you think any of that is news worthy? Not hardly. Just look at the headlines in the papers. The only time you’ll hear of anything going on in Iraq is when a solider has died or has been injured. It’s unfortunate that a 60 minutes news blurb compelled you to post your comments. That shows me that once again the liberal news bias in America is going full steam ahead.
Where there mistakes in appointing officials after the ground war ended? Did the military know who was a crook and who wasn’t? Is this a clear indication as to your opinion on “how badly the military is acting”? I really hope not. Did we do everything right at the end of WWII? Why was there an East Germany? Mistakes happen, the only thing we can do is try and fix it before we turn that country back over.
I didn’t see the 60 minutes bit, but I can tell you there are rules regarding the military and the media, and those rules were probably broken that day. Conversely, the military members are not required to communicate with any media organization unless properly cleared. In the event they were where they were not supposed to be, would prompt leaders and commanders to end discussions. I bet when that happened that added a nice subjective haze to the entire story?
As for what “we call freedom”, ask the majority of Iraqi citizens and not the selected numbers that the camera crew seeks out for their anti American positions, whether or not they have freedom. Soldiers and Marines are dying over there to provide them the same freedoms you and I have. You sound like a smart enough person not to let the views of a television show, whose only function is to gather ratings during “sweeps week”, sway you into unjustified opinion. I would suggest researching all the facts prior to concluding any negative feelings about our military or its members. It’s only fair.
Posted by JeffY (Member # 120) on :
Funny-you're response sounds exactly like the Rush (I'm not addicted) Limbo show today. And of course, he always tells all the truth as well.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
quote:Originally posted by 380SS: These shows and opinions (posts) disturb me, not that they are true or false, but they are one-sided.
Tell us what REALLY is going on if what I saw isn't true. The commanding officer said no one should be there that hadn't been charged and invited the media crew to the information center and once they found out who this guy was, they told them he in fact, was not charged. That's when the military hospitality turned 180. I'm a Gulf War vet myself, but that never stopped me from questioning things. I saw and heard the commanding officer get caught up in a potential lie (intended or not), and of course they're going to chase out anyone who's going to exploit that.
I heard much of the same opinions back in '91, but whether I agreed or not wasn't an issue for me. But my opinions are mine whether you agree or not, and if you feel obligated to respond to my post with the opinion that they're one-sided without even witnessing the program, well, that's just plain one-sided IMO. That's idealology. I'm an independent thinker and base my opinions on the information I am provided. I stated my position about how 60 minutes only gave a few minutes of information and suggested it wasn't going to make me change my position by itself, and I also stated the big "if that is actually going on there" disclaimer. I don't know for sure, and apparently neither do you. So I don't really see how my post could be considered one-sided. But even if it was, that's just my opinion, to which I'm entitled.
But like you say, the media only reports who's been dying lately, not any alleged wrongdoings. Nobody is perfect, but just like misdeeds are pointed out over here, misdeeds should be pointed out anywhere they occur, regardless of who's at fault. Don't ever get the idea I don't support our men and women in uniform. I fully support our troops stationed anywhere, because I know it's because someone put them there for a reason. I wish them all to come home safely after their jobs are done. I'm on our side, trust me, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I'm just starting to wonder how much freedom the "free" people of Iraq are actually seeing. If mistakes are made, it's ok, as long as they are fixed when found, not covered up. But that's just my opinion.
Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
uhmmm......
...for those of you who don't know this, 380SS knows what he's talking about.....he was there....in Iraq....and has the injuries to prove it.
I was on a flight one evening back to Detroit. There was another fellow (not 380SS) across the aisle from me....looked really tired and worn.....turns out he was returning from Iraq.....after 16 months as I recall.
We had quite a conversation...and at one point, he pulled his laptop (I swear I don't know how it ran with all that sand falling out of it.....) and started to show me literally hundreds of pics...of what's being found. It was shocking to see what I was seeing after listening and watching CBS, NBC and ABC........
Confidential to 380SS...congrats on the honor of being Grand Marshall of the Christmas Parade...I'm sorry I didn't get there..but if you're gonna be in PA for the Holidays, let me know...I still owe you many many beers! Or Dinner!
Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 88) on :
The Media has a role to play - sell advertising space! The more controversy they can find the better it will sell.
Without citing specific examples, if you dig into anyone anywhere eventually you'll find something that was not done correctly. Does that corrupt or indite the whole company/business/military? - no, it just shows one area where one MAY have messed up. There has to be an acceptable error ratio for anyone or any company. Perfection would be nice, but not attainable.
I don't think 60 minutes is the type of show that would say how great a job the military was doing, even if it was the best operation the U.S. military has ever done, 60 minutes would try and find something controversial. That's what they do! You have to understand that, and want that, when you tune in. I used to watch that show, haven't in years. Just got tired of seeing who they were going to go after next.
My $0.02.
380SS - thank you on a personal level for placing your life in harms way to protect the freedoms of others - us included.
Posted by mhayman (Member # 146) on :
Well said Hawkeye, as usual.
Patrick, Thanks for your service to our country. The people who haven't been there to see the situation first hand will NEVER understand or comprehend what has happened or what does happen over there and why.
Posted by KenC (Member # 189) on :
good job Hawkeye......i just made a simular post about or "earthquake"........
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fbodfather: uhmmm......
...for those of you who don't know this, 380SS knows what he's talking about.....he was there....in Iraq....and has the injuries to prove it.
I was on a flight one evening back to Detroit. There was another fellow (not 380SS) across the aisle from me....looked really tired and worn.....turns out he was returning from Iraq.....after 16 months as I recall.
We had quite a conversation...and at one point, he pulled his laptop (I swear I don't know how it ran with all that sand falling out of it.....) and started to show me literally hundreds of pics...of what's being found. It was shocking to see what I was seeing after listening and watching CBS, NBC and ABC........
Confidential to 380SS...congrats on the honor of being Grand Marshall of the Christmas Parade...I'm sorry I didn't get there..but if you're gonna be in PA for the Holidays, let me know...I still owe you many many beers! Or Dinner!
Good to hear from you Scott. Unfortunately I wont be back to PA for quite some time. I have a-half dozen doctors all lined up here (Fort Carson) wanting to cut me to pieces in order to keep me on active duty. My most recent surgery involved the surgeon digging a rock out the size of a .22 cal bullet that was under the skin of my right arm. With all the x-rays and CT scans they took of me, I don't know how they missed any of that. My next round of surgery is schedule for the 15th of December where they are attempting to repair a severed tendon in my right hand, then the 6th of January involves removing my ears and trying to restore my hearing. On a lighter note, Kevin stopped in while I was in PA, and we got to hang out for a bit. It was a fun time, he's got good story to tell you.
Don't worry, I wont let you forget about the beers!
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hawkeye: 380SS - thank you on a personal level for placing your life in harms way to protect the freedoms of others - us included.
Your quite welcome. Would do it again when called upon.
Patrick
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by mhayman: Well said Hawkeye, as usual.
Patrick, Thanks for your service to our country. The people who haven't been there to see the situation first hand will NEVER understand or comprehend what has happened or what does happen over there and why.
Don't mention it. I wouldn't go so far as to say they would never understand... we will all understand someday.
Posted by MaryandRalph (Member # 244) on :
Patrick, glad to hear you are doing better. Hope to meet you some day. Trying to say thanks to guys like you is hard. I guess that is one reason our family has adopted a soldier and have started to write to him while he is there. Just have to do our part however small it may be. Take care.
Ralph
[ 09. December 2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: MaryandRalph ]
Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
Removing your EARS??? OMG!
You are in my prayers for a speedy recovery.
(besides, you gotta get your hearing back 100% in order to fully appreciate the sound your SS makes!)
Any chance of being our guest of honor at Bowling Green (Fbody Invasion)at the National Corvette Museum the weekend of Sept. 16th???
Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
quote:Originally posted by MaryandRalph: Patrick, glad to hear you are doing better. Hope to meet you some day. Trying to say thanks to guys like you is hard. I guess that is one reason our family has adopted a soldier and have started to write to him while he is there. Just have to do our part however small it may be. Take care.
Ralph
Hey..Mary and Ralph...how does one go about 'adopting' a soldier in Iraq? I'd love to adopt about a dozen or so.....anything to improve their conditions........and I think it would be a great way for the SSOA to do something meaningful for those fighting to preserve freedom........
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fbodfather: Removing your EARS??? OMG!
You are in my prayers for a speedy recovery.
(besides, you gotta get your hearing back 100% in order to fully appreciate the sound your SS makes!)
Any chance of being our guest of honor at Bowling Green (Fbody Invasion)at the National Corvette Museum the weekend of Sept. 16th???
Do not fear, they'll put my ears back on hopefully straight too. Right now I have no eardrums and can hardly hear. I still can detect that rumble coming out of my SS though. It would be honor and privilege to be the guest honor at bowling green. Sep 16th is a little far out for me right now. Not sure what if any major deployments are planned. If not, I would gracefully accept. Keep me posted. Adopting a solider is an awesome idea, see my Adopt a solider post....
Posted by HTWLSS (Member # 117) on :
Patrick, If we drive to Bowling Green in September, it would be nice to add you to our caravan. (CamaroSSGal and her husband will be joining us as we pass through Utah.)
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by HTWLSS: Patrick, If we drive to Bowling Green in September, it would be nice to add you to our caravan. (CamaroSSGal and her husband will be joining us as we pass through Utah.)
Sounds great!
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
380SS, although Ive never served in the miltary, I am proud to be a Fightin Texas Aggie (WHOOP!). Im sure you've met some of my fellow aggies in your time in the military, so you know how we are. I myself am something of a student of military history, and so I understand how much BS exists in the media, especially when it comes to war coverage. So many important things are forgotten and pushed under the rug. So many heros are unsung, while at the same time so many negative things are emphasized and pushed into the limelight.
I for one, realize that a couple of hundred troops have died since the end of the war. I also realize that says nothing at all about our success or failure in iraq after the war, but rather, it shows how good we have become at winning a war. I recall all the lives lost on the beaches of Normandy and Iwo Jima, and I realize that we have simply become better at winning wars without losing lives.
I also realize that we are fighting a guerilla war against an opponent that has had 3 decades to prepare munitions, money, bunkers, and troops for this day. I firmly believe that removing him and his associates from power is a strong step to making the world a safer place, not only for Amercians, but also for everyone else. I fully support our troops, and salute you, for putting your life on the line, and taking the ultimate risk in the name of freedom. God bless you, and may he grant you a speedy recovery!
Thanks, and gig 'em!!!
Posted by Big A (Member # 1761) on :
I hope your smooth recovery continues.
Most of the news media is one sided, liberal.
CBS, NBC and ABC couldn't give both sides of the story if there life depended on it.
Our losses are very small in Iraq.
We have more murders and beatings in Philadelphia in an average week, which is promoted as a fairly safe city, than in the Iraq war zone. Posted by MaryandRalph (Member # 244) on :
[/QUOTE]Hey..Mary and Ralph...how does one go about 'adopting' a soldier in Iraq? I'd love to adopt about a dozen or so.....anything to improve their conditions........and I think it would be a great way for the SSOA to do something meaningful for those fighting to preserve freedom........ [/QB][/QUOTE]
Scott; sorry for the late reply, just got home from work. To answer your question: I was sent this site by my father who spent 20 plus years in the Navy. My father adopted one, my 18 year old daughter and Mary and I adopted one each, so hopefully we together will be able to help 3 soldiers in some small way. (Besides supporting our son who is in the AirForce)
The top right corner of the site there should be a button for "adopt a soldier" Click on that and fill out the form. You will get a e-mail back with the soldiers name and mailing address.
Also the main page really explains all about how this came to be and who is putting it together. The lady doing this really has a story behind her.
Thanks for the interest and the support Scott.
Ralph
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
quote:Originally posted by Big A: I hope your smooth recovery continues.
Most of the news media is one sided, liberal.
CBS, NBC and ABC couldn't give both sides of the story if there life depended on it.
Our losses are very small in Iraq.
We have more murders and beatings in Philadelphia in an average week, which is promoted as a fairly safe city, than in the Iraq war zone.
That’s another good example of news bias in America. There is no "major" political fallout in bringing to light the countless murders in cities like Philadelphia, although extremely unfortunate. They (those nine left winged Dems) just want to attack the Bush administration and his War on terror. Ignoring the real problems with-in our borders. I’m sorry; I digress.
Posted by Rhode Island Red (Member # 220) on :
380SS, I have a good friend who is out there in Bagdad working supplies at the airport... HE was ordered there last January. Upon talking to his father (one of the hostages (for nearly a year) from the US Embassy was taken over when the Shaw fell in '79 in Iran) and his wife, who was at his fathers house expecting him home for the holidays... found out, that he got another 6-8 month extension to next may/june I get word of how hard the Iraqi people live right now... No electricity, sewage, clean water, people kill eachother and get away with no chance of justice... mass genocide... then our troops came to Iraq, give to give the people a chance to live, have water, electricity, safe schools for their children (the future of Iraq)... in short, he is very committed to what is going on, and believes we are doing the right thing out there...
Given that the media only reports things that will get ratings, they do not tell about how water was restored to 100's of thousands of people or decent medical care being restored to its citezens. This you will not hear from no media outlet.. and when there is little bad news... they create the aura of conspiracy and misdeeds by only telling part of the story..
el ess1, there is more to the story that 60 minutes reported... this leader, might know something or be a threat to our troops out there, that they do not know about, and our troops are not going to give out this information... to save lives. So please go beyond the TV media, and do not assume what 60 minutes said was the gospel and the entire truth, that is faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr from it.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rhode Island Red: el ess1, there is more to the story that 60 minutes reported... this leader, might know something or be a threat to our troops out there, that they do not know about, and our troops are not going to give out this information... to save lives. So please go beyond the TV media, and do not assume what 60 minutes said was the gospel and the entire truth, that is faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr from it.
It seems you're making some assumptions that aren't based on fact, so what makes your opinion any more viable than mine, and can you tell me how that assumption disproves the 60 minutes piece? I'd like to know what more is going on than what was reported. I guess you missed the big "if this is actually going on" and words like "may" part just like everyone else did in my original post. That's because you either missed it, or read into it what you wanted it to say. Everyone here figures that since I brought this up that I'm a frikken retard. You think I was basing my opinions solely on one 10 minute segment after forming my opinions about the war and our military for over the last 6 months? C'mon. I'd give a head of lettuce more credit than that. And if you didn't see the article itself, then how on earth can you definitively say you know it was 100% bunk? That's pretty presumptuous. I never said I believed the story as it was shown, I just suggested that I would like to see more information to make a more solid opinion. I am fully aware of the media's reputation for not always telling the truth, but I would bet that there is at least one piece of truth in every newsmedia story out there (unless you were like one writer for the NY Times).
The bottom line of this is, that no matter WHO you are, where you've been or what you did, you cannot EVER know what goes on everywhere. If there's anyone here that's been to that prison, then speak up. If you haven't, then your opinion is just as worthy as mine. There are things that the camera will not ever show us, and things that the public will never know (and probably shouldn't). And that's sad, because if the media is going to show us what the heck is going on in Iraq, Afghanistan or even in Philadelphia, then I expect to see the good with the bad. If you choose to demonize me just because of sharing some information that piqued my questioning attitude, then so be it. I don't give a rat's butt. Because that would be your o-p-i-n-i-o-n. And for the record, for those that may not be aware, a person's opinion cannot be right or wrong, nor need it be based on anything. Many people seem to forget that now and then.
And even as such, call it propaganda, or whatever, 60 minutes is no different than say, GM. Read a GM car sales catalog. Will they tell you that you're going to likely be getting that pinion seal replaced within the first year of ownership, you're brake discs will warp within 20K miles, or that you may have to have your engine torn into to fix that oil leak? Hardly. Information is out there, but you're not going to get it all from just one source. How you decipher it is up to you, and no one should be telling you how to decipher it.
And the flip side to this is that as a military member, you also have an opinion in this. And I've yet to see a two-sided opinion come out from any service-member, on TV or by talking to them personally. So I don't see why my opinion needs to be attacked just because you may take issue with it.
Look, I don't want to sound anti-U.S. military. Because I support our troops wherever they go. But I don't care if you're one of the troops or not, if you ARE doing something wrong, then no matter who you are, you should own up to it and shouldn't get away with wrongdoings. If you really believe that our military is doing 100% good over in Iraq, then you may need to review your own perspective because you're living in la la land. I truly believe that for the most part, our military is doing the job they've been assigned with great valor and they have my respect, and have done and will do great things for the Iraqis as a whole. But just like every organization, there's shady and probably inappropriate things that have gone on or go on currently behind the scenes that we may never know about. And it isn't the grunts behind most of the stuff like that, it's usually those higher up in the military.
I don't make it a habit of defending my opinion, but I think in this case, my position got diluted by too many flags waving in people's eyes. I suggest you go back and read what I wrote carefully, only this time without bias, and you'll probably see that I wasn't suggesting it was the whole military I was talking about when I made the post about some possibly questionable military tactics.
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