Well, most of you are by now familiar with my dissatisfaction with my factory, GM centercaps. Through my fight with GM's licensing company, and some really cool help in their legal department, through reverse-engineering the barbed-spoke design, to expanding and producing something that complemented the factory wheels, I am truly satisfied with what I have done. Here, now, is the final product. Opinions and suggestions are welcome of course. material is 6061 aluminium with a decorative chrome plating. Note that the first two pictures were taken before any chrome plating, they are just the caps left in the bare, polished aluminium. I did all the design and manufacturing work myself, for those of you unfamiliar with it. I had considered briefly filling in the machined cavities with blue paint to match the body, but decided against it, choosing instead to leave the shadowed look created by the tool lines in the bottom of the cavities. Im not sure if this is a mistake or not, but opinions are welcome. In addition to the barbed spokes that hold the centercap onto the wheel, there is also a backup washer and bolt that prevents the centercaps from falling off or being stolen without removal of the wheels. I built a prototype and tested it (without the security washer) on some private roads, and the prototype piece stayed on, so I am confident in the security of these pieces to stay on the car under normal operating conditions. Everything you see on both sides of the centercap was done with a CNC milling machine, with the exception of the trimming of the largest outside diameter of the parts. I basically turned down some aluminium bar stock, cut billets off with a band saw, and then used a milling machine and some common fixtures to do the rest. I think it looks a lot better than the factory pieces in a style sense, but the most important question remains:
Does this look like a factory, OEM component? If you knew nothing about Fcars, but you saw this part on the wheel, would you think it was an OEM component? Also, special thanks to Mike Bonte, for his great assistance in processing the Firebird logo into a CAD file that made it easier for me to make these. thanks bro, as always!
UPDATE: Here is the last bit that some people wanted to see, its a side-view schematic of how these are held on the car. The view is exaggerated, to show in theory how it works, so forgive the drawing be not exactly accurate. Basically, the larger portion is the wheel, with the lip in the centercap hole. You can also see how the barbed spokes poke through this hole. ordinarily, when the caps are installed, the spokes are flexed out a bit, and hold the cap against the wheel without letting it move. The back of the centercap has a threaded hole in it, and a washer is held onto the cap with a bolt. The washer is wider than the hole through, so it would catch on that lip if the spokes failed (assume for a second that the spokes dont exist). My original prototype part did not include a backup washer, and it still met all of my tests (a 3 ft drop, driving at 70 mph on highway, hard stops, hard turns, going 40 on a bumpy dirt road, etc). The backup washer also prevents anyone from removing the centercap without taking the wheel off; in order to remove the washer, the wheel must first be removed.
Does this make things more clear?
[ 15. January 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: FireChicken ]
Posted by twobrats (Member # 2180) on :
That looks very nice...Even more of a sense of uniqueness. I wouldn't know the difference (of course, I'm not Fbodfather et.al)...
All in all, TWO THUMBS UP from a fellow Texan!
Posted by mhayman (Member # 146) on :
FC - I think those are great. They are obviously unique but I really like how they stick out or overlap the wheel. I am sure they were A LOT of work. Nice job.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
Looks good. I'm used to seeing the ZR-1 caps which are flush, so it looks a bit strange, but nice job on the design, and I agree, let the natural finish shine through, no paint.
Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
WHOA!!!! Mr. FireChicken!!! That's plum beeeyooteeful!!! You gotta market that!!! Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 88) on :
Nice job - but for a different opinion - I would like to see it painted on the inside. I think the "bird" will disappear if you get a few feet away.
As for flush fit vs. extruded fit, I'd have to see it live on the car to decide. Well done!
Posted by Opie (Member # 2007) on :
Very impressive...
Posted by 2002Z4CSS (Member # 1393) on :
Nice job! Posted by 35th 02 ss (Member # 1667) on :
I like it. Posted by JohnS (Member # 1073) on :
Nice job!
I'm with Hawkeye. I think the 'bird would look good painted (maybe the same color as your car?). The caps, sitting proud, are unique and I'd like to see them in person before offering an opinion.
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
Yeah, I had originally planned on painting the cavities, but after I got them done, I wasnt so sure if it was the best idea. The image does disappear in the right light, but at night at sonic, you can see them, and on bright, sunny days, they stand out. Im still thinking about it, but if someone doesnt mind photoshopping those last two pictures with navy blue in them, It may make it easier to make a decision.
Posted by Xsta Z 28 (Member # 740) on :
Beautiful craftmanship! Look fnatastic, although I an not sure on the protruding out past the face of the wheel. Need to see in person.
Posted by Sizzle (Member # 503) on :
You did a great job on those man. Nice.
I'm more of flush person, but you did a sweet job on those.
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
I like them a lot. I also think that the recessed areas would look better painted.
Great job Fire Chicken!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Mike Bonte (Member # 1892) on :
WOW
nice job on them
Posted by blkragss02 (Member # 1801) on :
Nice Posted by Stealth Performance (Member # 1072) on :
Very nice job
Posted by DanA_F99_1977 (Member # 118) on :
Cool except they don't say SS or Z06 on them!
Nice job!
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
Thanks all for the compliments, but I would like more suggestions on whether to paint the cavities or not.
Also, Id love to hear opinions from JeffY and Fbodfather if they have time, since you guys are probably the most qualified here to offer opinions on how they look, and how they might look if the cavities are painted, or if they should be left plain.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
quote:Originally posted by FireChicken: Also, Id love to hear opinions from JeffY and Fbodfather if they have time, since you guys are probably the most qualified here to offer opinions on how they look, and how they might look if the cavities are painted, or if they should be left plain.
FC, with that statement you're coming across as a little smug, like as only enthusiasts, our opinions don't matter. (That's how GM and other car companies used to get in the binds they do.) That's not to say Scott and Jeff don't have good judgement, but remember it would only be their opinion as well.
Nearly every chrome wheel or cap or whatever that has recessed areas in it were usually painted in those recesses by GM specs. Primarily, this was because of the difficulty in polishing up in those areas. It was just easier and faster to pop it with a little black or silver when you're making 1/2 million parts. So if you want it to look factory, then you'll probably need to paint them. And if so, paint them black. That would make them appear as if they could appear on any color car. Navy blue wouldn't even get noticed, I'm afraid. I'm still sticking with my guns and saying leave them plain, but that's just my opinion.
But, I don't see how ANYONE could be the "most qualified" to give an opinion other than yourself. Do what YOU want to do and gives you the warm fuzzy. You're the one you have to please since they're on your car. You DID do this to please yourself and not others, didn't you? Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by el ess1:
quote:Originally posted by FireChicken: Also, Id love to hear opinions from JeffY and Fbodfather if they have time, since you guys are probably the most qualified here to offer opinions on how they look, and how they might look if the cavities are painted, or if they should be left plain.
FC, with that statement you're coming across as a little smug, like as only enthusiasts, our opinions don't matter. (That's how GM and other car companies used to get in the binds they do.) That's not to say Scott and Jeff don't have good judgement, but remember it would only be their opinion as well.
Nearly every chrome wheel or cap or whatever that has recessed areas in it were usually painted in those recesses by GM specs. Primarily, this was because of the difficulty in polishing up in those areas. It was just easier and faster to pop it with a little black or silver when you're making 1/2 million parts. So if you want it to look factory, then you'll probably need to paint them. And if so, paint them black. That would make them appear as if they could appear on any color car. Navy blue wouldn't even get noticed, I'm afraid. I'm still sticking with my guns and saying leave them plain, but that's just my opinion.
But, I don't see how ANYONE could be the "most qualified" to give an opinion other than yourself. Do what YOU want to do and gives you the warm fuzzy. You're the one you have to please since they're on your car. You DID do this to please yourself and not others, didn't you?
I certainly didnt mean any offense, but since everyone was pretty much just saying "looks nice", and not giving information like you just did, it doesnt help me decide if painting them would look like crap or not. I dont mind leaving them as is, but I dont want to paint them if it would look like crap. Since Fbodfather and JeffY had a great more to do with the production of these cars than anyone else here, I put some weight in their opinion that I dont in anyone elses. Now, the information you just gave me in your reply is new, and its EXACTLY the kind of reply Im looking for. Im not trying to be a jerk, but when I ask for information, and all I hear are compliments, it sorta defeats the purpose of my asking.
my apologies if I've insulted anyone.
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
Not that my opinion matters a great deal, but overall I think they are of very good quality in craftsmanship and design.
If I were to purchase these, I would personally like to see them recessed and color matched.
If not through a GM license procedure, then process them through after market distributors; have numerous caps to match the paint codes for cars. As with all options, have the option available for those who want them plain. Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
quote:Originally posted by FireChicken: I certainly didnt mean any offense, but since everyone was pretty much just saying "looks nice", and not giving information like you just did, it doesnt help me decide if painting them would look like crap or not... my apologies if I've insulted anyone.
I didn't think to offend was your intent, and I certainly didn't take offense to it, but it did sound a little strange. But you did say opinions and suggestions were welcome, therefore the "looks nice" comments are opinions, so thus, are valid. No law says you have to expound on an opinion.
Here's a suggestion that you could try and it won't be permanent, but you can get a real life viewpoint on it. Take some black, or dark metallic blue nail polish and paint them. Then, after you are done experimenting, you should be able to remove the nail polish with acetone or nail polish remover. This way, if you don't like them painted, you can remove the nail polish without any permanency. Just an opinion. Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
quote:Originally posted by el ess1: But you did say opinions and suggestions were welcome, therefore the "looks nice" comments are opinions, so thus, are valid. No law says you have to expound on an opinion.
....you sure you're not going to law school online???? Posted by mhayman (Member # 146) on :
I would like to add to my previous post that I like them plain. To me, it is a subtle detail that really looks classy.
I would imagine that the SS centercaps that came with the SLP optional wheels would catch your eye more if the "SS" letters were completely filled in. I think there is a reason they are just the outline of the letters - it looks better/classier.
As el ess 1 said, I am sure GM would paint them so they could cut down on labor costs but that's the advantage you have. You don't need to make 1.5 million of them so make them look good TO YOU. Make 2 sets and have one set painted and one plain and change them out when you feel like it.
If you do want to paint them , I would suggest going with a grey or charcoal color to keep it toned down.
Posted by RagSS (Member # 1127) on :
...I would be on the side of not painting them as well, ...OR if you decide to, do it in a subtle way. The first pic you have really looks nice, ...in the picture you have of the wheel on the car it's hard to see the bird so a light 'shadowing' would look nice. Sort of the black that would get into the crevices when buffing aluminum...
Posted by 380SS (Member # 2078) on :
I would never claimed to be a "Photo Shop expert" (so don't beat me up), but I was really interested in what your caps would look like with paint. That being said, here is my rendition of your caps.
quote:Originally posted by FireChicken: Also, Id love to hear opinions from JeffY and Fbodfather if they have time, since you guys are probably the most qualified here to offer opinions on how they look, and how they might look if the cavities are painted, or if they should be left plain.
FC, with that statement you're coming across as a little smug, like as only enthusiasts, our opinions don't matter. (That's how GM and other car companies used to get in the binds they do.) That's not to say Scott and Jeff don't have good judgement, but remember it would only be their opinion as well.
Nearly every chrome wheel or cap or whatever that has recessed areas in it were usually painted in those recesses by GM specs. Primarily, this was because of the difficulty in polishing up in those areas. It was just easier and faster to pop it with a little black or silver when you're making 1/2 million parts. So if you want it to look factory, then you'll probably need to paint them. And if so, paint them black. That would make them appear as if they could appear on any color car. Navy blue wouldn't even get noticed, I'm afraid. I'm still sticking with my guns and saying leave them plain, but that's just my opinion.
But, I don't see how ANYONE could be the "most qualified" to give an opinion other than yourself. Do what YOU want to do and gives you the warm fuzzy. You're the one you have to please since they're on your car. You DID do this to please yourself and not others, didn't you?
I have to agree 110% on what el ess1 pointed out ....
[ 13. January 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Stealth Performance ]
Posted by JeffY (Member # 120) on :
1. The tangs aren't flexible-what will happen with temperature variation from driving/braking-will they remain secure? 2. Aluminum to aluminum-any corrosion protection-needed or not? 3. I prefer the flush look-just an opinion.
4. Subtle shade of silver/gray painted with a mask for hogh volume production - not body colored - too passe 5. Nice work.
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: 1. The tangs aren't flexible-what will happen with temperature variation from driving/braking-will they remain secure? 2. Aluminum to aluminum-any corrosion protection-needed or not? 3. I prefer the flush look-just an opinion.
4. Subtle shade of silver/gray painted with a mask for hogh volume production - not body colored - too passe 5. Nice work.
Now thats the type of pointing out I like.
1. The spokes are thin enough to allow flexibility for normal installation and removal. i machined them thin enough to allow for that, although fatigue is my biggest concern in this category. Of course, aluminium fatigues faster than plastic, but c'est la vie. As for staying on, i built a test piece first, before these, and tested in over rough roads, highway driving, hard braking, all types of driving conditions. This was without the backup washer. The backup washer should hold as a secondary locking mechanism, so even if all the spokes break off it should hold the cap on the car, albeit with some vibration noise that would indicate spoke failure.
2. centercaps are chrome plated 6061 aluminium. I also put some paint on the steel behind the wheel to prevent any more rust from sticking to the inside of my wheels, caps, etc. As my wheels are chrome plated aluminium, and the center caps are chrome plated everywhere, not just on the face, I would assume that wheel-to-cap corrosion should be minimal. As for corrosion anywhere else on the caps, the extra chrome plating should prevent that from occurring as well.
3. I guess I better let my big secret out: its easier to make them the way I did it if they are not flush. If you have some surface to chuck on, its much simpler to hold the parts on the mill. LOL! I also liked the 3D look, like on the camaro centercaps.
4. I think you kind of echoed what el ess 1 said about OEM coloring, I was thinking about using NBM paint as a filler simply because my car is that color, or black to look more "factory", but I do like the subtle flavors myself. Actually, in medium light they are much more visible than on bright sunny days. I think I'll hang with the college station fcar crew this weekend, and see what it looks like under sonic lights.
5. Thanks, all compliments from everyone are always appreciated. Do you happen to know why the fcar centercaps had ABS or WS6 on them, as opposed to a design that is more in theme with the car?
ALSO: 380SS: Very nice photo shops. Interesting stuff, but if I colored them it would be in darker colors, like a navy blue, black, or maybe a two-tone color (NBM and dark gray).
Anyone else wanna try photo-shopping colors in?
[ 13. January 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: FireChicken ]
Posted by HTWLSS (Member # 117) on :
You could try your hand at Microsoft Paintbrush. It comes standard on most systems.
Posted by JeffY (Member # 120) on :
"Do you happen to know why the fcar centercaps had ABS or WS6 on them, as opposed to a design that is more in theme with the car?"
WS6 obviously is the Pontiac option.Also, ABS was a big selling point for Pontiac. They had it on the A-car caps for a long time also.
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
You could try your hand at Microsoft Paintbrush. It comes standard on most systems.
true, however, owning a saw does not make one a carpenter!
Posted by GiT (Member # 1819) on :
quote:true, however, owning a saw does not make one a carpenter!
LOL.......these are sum of the wisest words I have ever heard you speak.
Nice job on the caps........they look good. I would also prefer the logo to be the same as the car's color.
[ 14. January 2004, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: GiT ]
Posted by DaddySS (Member # 848) on :
Raised is OK but not that much - about 1/2 the current height would be better.
For bird logo - a tarnished or grey fill would make them stand out, be subtle, and match all colors.
For SS logos, the factory SS colors.
Nice Job.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
Well, I'm not a proclaimed expert on photoshop, but here's a few quickie versions of black, gray, and dark blue to get an idea.
[ 14. January 2004, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: el ess1 ]
Posted by Rhode Island Red (Member # 220) on :
I agree If the center caps are more flush with the surrounding surface, it would give a cleaner look and a more finished impression
the trouble with the colored center caps is give 4-5years the paint will fade
Posted by Steve da Wrench (Member # 1301) on :
I think you did a great job on the caps. They might look better being flush, although they good the way they are too. Would have to see it in person to know for sure.
El es 1, I like the photoshop job you did. They all look very nice in color! Posted by MOO4340 (Member # 471) on :
Think the painted looks really nice, this is from an SS owner too!
quote:Originally posted by el ess1: Well, I'm not a proclaimed expert on photoshop, but here's a few quickie versions of black, gray, and dark blue to get an idea.
Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
(snork...huh?......whaaa?) (waking up....) (don't ask me how I missed this post up to this point........)
I have three concerns.....
High speeds.....will they remain on the car?? Looking at the picture, it would appear so, but I'd defer to JeffY....one of my favorite engineers of all time........
Finish.....will it withstand salt and grime?
(well, OK....two concerns......and an opinion/concern.......)
I would not paint the insert....because of durability.......as you know, we've had problems with the red bowtie fading into oblivion on some of our wheels.....yes, the vendor was supposed to ensure that the finish didn't fade....but it did in many cases......
Now...with that said, I think they look incredible!
Posted by BadRag (Member # 1566) on :
Those look very cool & i can see why they are raised. I would leave them unpainted as they will darked with age. BTW, what make/type of machine did you mill those on?
Excellent job!
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by BadRag: Those look very cool & i can see why they are raised. I would leave them unpainted as they will darked with age. BTW, what make/type of machine did you mill those on?
Excellent job!
Well, I did 95% of the work on a Fadal VMC (a cnc milling machine) at the shop I work for. I work for a company that builds molds, prototype parts, and all sorts of custom tools, fixtures, and whatnots, so this was actually not that difficult to machine, I just did it on nights and weekends. The people I work for build a lot of their own firearms accessories: handles, scope mounts, illuminator mounts, all kinds of cool stuff.
Fbodfather: I will post a picture later today, that shows the entire assembly. There are actually two mechanicsms that hold the centercaps onto the wheels. The first is a reverse-engineered version of the OEM design, the barbed spokes that allow a slid-in and expansion that hold the centercap against various surfaces on the wheel itself. Additionally, the back of the centercap has a threaded hold in it, and there is a custom-made washer that is bolted to the cap. The washer prevents anyone from stealing the caps off the wheels, and also acts as a backup in case of spoke failure. My original prototype part did not incorporate the backup washer, and still stayed on the wheel in a variety of hard and normal driving conditions, so I feel pretty confident about them staying on the car. As for the finish, I am hoping it will last as long as the wheel, since its a similar construction (aluminium cap with decorative chromep lating) to the wheel itself. I've heard about the problem with the SS centercaps being painted, thats one of the issues I had with painting mine.
I will post the diagram later today.
Posted by JeffY (Member # 120) on :
Just remember, normal durability testing is 100,000 miles, -40F to +120F ambient and dropping the wheel with the cap on from 5 feet and the cap not coming off. plus other secret stuff.
Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 88) on :
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: Just remember, normal durability testing is 100,000 miles, -40F to +120F ambient and dropping the wheel with the cap on from 5 feet and the cap not coming off. plus other secret stuff.
Ah - c'mon Jeff - no secrets here! Oh I know, how many coats of Zaino can it take? (probably corrosion resistance, damage from impact, injury to pedestrians etc.)
Posted by TimeLord (Member # 1389) on :
They're UGLY !!!!!
Joke,,,,,
If those are SLP wheels the Chrome on your caps will probably last longer!!
Pretty good work for a chicken!!
[ 15. January 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: TimeLord ]
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: Just remember, normal durability testing is 100,000 miles, -40F to +120F ambient and dropping the wheel with the cap on from 5 feet and the cap not coming off. plus other secret stuff.
secret stuff, huh? Im pretty sure that putting me behind the wheel is far worse than anything GM ever had in mind for a car. bwahahahaha!!! Nobody knows how to destroy stuff as well as I do.
At any rate, Ive edited the original post to include a side-view assembly of centercap, wheel, backup washer and bolt. Opinions?
Posted by BadRag (Member # 1566) on :
quote: Well, I did 95% of the work on a Fadal VMC (a cnc milling machine) at the shop I work for. I work for a company that builds molds, prototype parts, and all sorts of custom tools, fixtures, and whatnots, so this was actually not that difficult to machine, I just did it on nights and weekends. The people I work for build a lot of their own firearms accessories: handles, scope mounts, illuminator mounts, all kinds of cool stuff.
I work for Haas Automation, so i know what kind of things people make in they're "spare" time That how i got my Billet alum. air vents....VMC's are great mechines... Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by BadRag:
quote: Well, I did 95% of the work on a Fadal VMC (a cnc milling machine) at the shop I work for. I work for a company that builds molds, prototype parts, and all sorts of custom tools, fixtures, and whatnots, so this was actually not that difficult to machine, I just did it on nights and weekends. The people I work for build a lot of their own firearms accessories: handles, scope mounts, illuminator mounts, all kinds of cool stuff.
I work for Haas Automation, so i know what kind of things people make in they're "spare" time That how i got my Billet alum. air vents....VMC's are great mechines...
Haas machines are nice, but i really like the fadal setup, its great if you are doing a lot of different jobs at once, things are setup to be modular. Most of the shops I know that have haas machines do production work; ive never really had much of a chance to play with them.
VMC's are a lot of fun, when im out of college, I plan on buying one and putting it in my garage.
Posted by BadRag (Member # 1566) on :
There are alot of shops buying our smaller mechines just to cut bike rims on, alot of our mills & lathes are getting smaller for the small shops and are selling quite well, it's looking very good at work lately..
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by BadRag: There are alot of shops buying our smaller mechines just to cut bike rims on, alot of our mills & lathes are getting smaller for the small shops and are selling quite well, it's looking very good at work lately..
What exactly do you do for Haas? The shop I work at has 5 Fadal VMC's.
2 40x20's 1 60x30 1 30x16 1 40x20 with a 4th and 5th axis table.
Posted by MYLILSS (Member # 2213) on :
I like em alot. They look great.
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by MYLILSS: I like em alot. They look great.
Well, look what the cat dragged in!!
Good to see you finally come around!
Posted by MYLILSS (Member # 2213) on :
quote:Originally posted by FireChicken:
quote:Originally posted by MYLILSS: I like em alot. They look great.
Well, look what the cat dragged in!!
Good to see you finally come around!
you know me...the blonde hair and everything, I get lost easily. lol Posted by BadRag (Member # 1566) on :
I work in QA, mostly inspection, we make about 30 differant types of mechines, even some lasers, and always new models coming out, from the trade shows i've been to and the sales that we're doing, the sky's the limit, so i'm very happy with my job. Check out the web site Haascnc.com or our Nascar team at Haascncracing.com if you want to look around.
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