being such a prick when I was 11 going on 25. I'm about ready to go over the edge with my 11 yr old son. He has, within the last 3 months, turned into a little SOB; Back talking, lying. not doing home work and just plain being disrespectful to those around him, especialy when he has has friends around, his grade have slipped from all As to 2/3 Bs. He has just in the last few month also discovered he realllllllllly like girls. I have grounded him, taken him out of band(which he hated), taken his phone away and done everything short of beating the snout out of him; none of that seems to work. I told him this morning that when he gets back from his mother's on Monday, things are going to change. I told him that the next smart word out of his mouth equals my hand on his face.
I know I'm not the oldest one on this board and I know there are some on here that probably did allot of this stuff themselves, how did you or your parents handle this? I'm tring real hard not to be like my father and beat the stew out of him everytime he steps out of line, but I feel those days are getting ready to change.
Posted by blkragss02 (Member # 1801) on :
I guess it means we're gettin' old!
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
Yes.......you need to be stern with him but you also need to find a way to have an open discussion with him to find out what's wrong. That's not an easy thing to do...it takes a lot of time and patience. But the last thing you want to do is totally alienate him by comming down so hard he just shuts you out. When my wife and I raised our kids we tried to be firm with them but at the same time gave them a lot of love and tried to have frank discussions with them when they were having problems. It doesn't work all the time, but we both felt that we were able to head off a lot of problems before they got out of hand.
Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
Sounds to me like Dave knows what he is talking about. Although I don't have children and may not be giving my .02 cents here but for some reason times have changed and people have changed along with them. I know that if I or my brothers got out of line with our parents we would have had our behinds tanned. We were brought up to respect others and treat all like we want to be.
If my Father thought we were starting to get a little brash all he had to do was give us a "look" or touch his belt buckle and we straightened up. I don't think all problems are within the home, I feel they see there friends showing disrespect and they feel they can push the envelope as well.
I hope everything turns out well for you and your son.
Posted by 2002 SLP SS (Member # 1893) on :
I can side with you. I have 2 daughters 1 now 14 and 16. I went through a lot also. They both have kept their grades up so far. But, when they are asked to do chores they fight and refuse, and we are in the "I hate you Dad phase,and say they will run away". If I ever told my parents I hate them I would of been belted hard. I think with liberalism creeping into every aspect of our lives,yuppie doctors are telling parents give the kids "time outs", and do not yell let them "vent". My girls slammed doors until I took their doors away for awhile and put them in the garage. what is the old biblical passage "spare the rod spoil the child". Good luck does your wife side with you or the child? We have been married 22 years and we are close to divorce as my wife always sides with the girls in my house which makes it difficult for me!
Posted by vargod (Member # 1116) on :
He has lived with his mother for the past 8 years. I can not complain about how she has raised him, but I know she did not deal some things she should of. This year he decided he want to goto private school up here and live with me. He was a very withdrawn child when he came up here. He did not really have any friend either here or with his mother. Now here has blossomed. He has friends coming out the ears nad he he becoming a little person. This is a good thing, but it the talking back I and disrepect that has come with it I can not stand. I have tried the "soft" approach and that only works for a little awhile. I'm trying to raise him to become a strong person and stand up for himself. Growing up my parents did not feel the need to for me to fight back when the bully came a knocking. If I got into a fight in school, my parents beat me worse that the bully did. I taught my son how to fight and stand his ground, he has done a good job at that and no one pick on him He also understand that if he starts a fight he will get knocked so far into next week people wil forget who he is. HE cameup tp me oneday telling me he got into a fight and how he beat this kid up, but it was not his fault. I checked with the teache and they confrimed the bully started it and my son finished it. Well, he was walking around thinking he was king s___. I told him it was nothing to be proud of. He said that he could beat me up and that he was going to. I told him he got one shot then it was mine. He took his punch then I knocked him into the following week. He learned his lesson, he has not been in any other fights, at least that I know of. I told him he needs to remember there is always someone bigger than him.
Talkin onlyt seems to work for as long as he wants to remember it. But I don't want to become my father and beat him everytime. I had to walk away last night and send my wife in to deal with him or I was going to hurt him. He was swinging his 4 year old sister around by her ankles just to make her cry. The funny thing about it is to look at him you see Harry Potter not Malfoy. He made this threat he wanted to go back to his mothers and the old school he was at. I said fine and picked up the phone and called his mother to come get him. He started crying and saying he did not want to leave this school. The biggest problem with him is he is toooooooo smart for his own good. He has always been in the advance classes in school.
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
Keep on working on him. It's a constant battle with a lot of ups and downs. Sounds like he knows he can't get away with things with you........that's good. But he will test you every chance he gets. Again, try to keep an open dialetic going with him. Make sure he has plenty of "chores" around the house. He won't like that but it will teach him some responsibility. And if he doesn't do the chores, then he shouldn't be allowed to do some of the things that he likes until they are done. I know all of this is tough........a lot tougher today too because of all the things than can "distract" kids that are new to this generation.
Good luck.
Posted by Elie Garfinkel (Member # 1635) on :
quote:Originally posted by vargod: being such a prick when I was 11 going on 25. I'm about ready to go over the edge with my 11 yr old son. He has, within the last 3 months, turned into a little SOB; Back talking, lying. not doing home work and just plain being disrespectful to those around him, especialy when he has has friends around, his grade have slipped from all As to 2/3 Bs. I know I'm not the oldest one on this board and I know there are some on here that probably did allot of this stuff themselves, how did you or your parents handle this? I'm tring real hard not to be like my father and beat the stew out of him everytime he steps out of line, but I feel those days are getting ready to change.
I'm gonna throw a couple of thoughts your way as a father of 2 boys (19 & 21) and as someone who teaches kids in this age group. I know what you are going through - especially the feeling of frustration seeing that your strategies don't seem to be working right now. First of all, I can't remember any of us kids behaving in such a disrespectful manner either, but hey - that was then and this is now. Our challenge is how to deal with this "new attitude" and teach the kids that this is not the approach that's gonna get them ahead in life. These kids seem to be pushing the limits to see how far they can go and what they can get away with. As they begin to mature, this is their way of attempting to determine what's OK and what's not. I feel that it is extremely important to set clear limits with these kids and at the same time set reasonable consequences for them if they go past the limits that you have set. If you do not follow through on the consequences that have been set out, then you are toast. Make sure the kid knows what he/she is in for if the rules are broken and follow through every time. When the kid starts whining that it's not fair, the response has to be, "You knew this was the consequence, yet you chose to break the rules anyway. What did you expect?" This is a start in teaching the kid to take responsibility for his/her actions. I find it amazing to see how many adults I run across who have never seemed to learn this! IMHO, getting into a lengthy discussion with an 11 year old ,trying to explain this, that and the other is counter-productive. They don't want to bother with having these discussions and they have a lot of difficulty intellectualizing a lot of the concepts that we as parents, sometimes go to great lengths to explain to them, thinking they'll understand the logic. My experience tells me that kids want it kept simple and straightforward. Keep the consequence related to the "crime", if at all possible. i.e. if the kid walks away from the TV and leaves the empty soda cans and potato chip bags lying around, then the kid has to know that the consequence is that eating/drinking in front of the TV is banned for a certain period of time. A very effective ploy for me was put into effect when the kids got a bit older and I would come down to the family room on a Sunday morning to find it a complete disaster area. I'd go up to their rooms, wake them up and tell them they had to get downstairs immediately and clean it up! 13 year-olds are not stupid (nor do they like to wake up at 7:30 am on a Sunday morning) and from then on, they always cleaned up the family room before leaving it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can do this sort of stuff with an 11 year-old. Not quite so easy to do if you bury your head in the sand by coddling and cajoling them and waiting until the kid is 16 before deciding you've had enough of their 'tude. By then, it's obviously too late. I've seen what happens to parent-child relationships when discipline is left too long, and the parent(s) decide that it's high time for change. It's not pretty. Be firm and stay the course. The kid will respect you for it in the end and you will have a much easier time of it when they hit 16-18 years old! Of course, we had our own gut-wrenching times and at one point ended up going to a family counsellor who suggested another strategy with respect to consequences. She drew the analogy of a judge passing sentence on a criminal - that is, the first offence carries a relatively light sentence and if the person commits a 2nd offence, then the sentence is more severe. Her point was that rarely if ever does a kid require "sentencing" a third time, but if necessary, be prepared (and obviously inform the kid) to come down heavily with a stiff sentence (jail!) She emphasized that the key is to not sentence the kid to "jail" on the 1st or second offence. This also worked for us. Another thing is to work hard at having positive things in your relationship if you are going through a particularly difficult time with your kid. I think it can be very damaging to your future relationship if only confrontation is taking place on a daily basis. This is a rut that can be easily fallen into and the longer you are in it, the harder it is to climb out of. I know this can be extremely difficult to focus on when you feel like wringing the kid's neck, but it's worth it in the long run. A healthy relationship must have enough positive aspects to it in order to balance the negative or confrontational aspects that are front and center at the moment. As far as hitting the kid is concerned, I honestly believe that under extreme circumstances, it could be beneficial, but I'm very grateful to have never found myself in that position. Luckily, the situations I've had to deal with have permitted me to come up with workable alternatives to hitting. I would never give advice on this to anybody who has been in more "extreme" situations than I have. FWIW, more than a couple of people have told me to NEVER slap a kid in the face (extreme humiliation) and if you feel that you must get physical, then it's just one hit on the bum (for shock effect) and that's it - NEVER multiple hits or a "beating". Kids have this uncanny ability to determine whether you are hitting out of love or out of anger and the effects are significant, either way. This is an area that I deal with every day and feel strongly about. That being said, I have learned never to tell a parent how to bring up their kids. Since you asked, I'm presenting these ideas for your consideration only and not as a solution. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for the next. Good luck and follow your heart!
Best regardSS,
Elie
Posted by Elie Garfinkel (Member # 1635) on :
Coincidentally, this article on spanking showed up in this morning's Toronto Sun. It's written by a 22 year old single girl, based on the memory of how she was brought up. Interesting reading! http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/sa.html
Best regardSS,
Elie
Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
That is a good article but I don't approve of the mother not saying anything about the child touching things that shouldn't have been and not doing anything about it. Only then did the Boyfriend step in later. She should have in the first place.
Sure words should be used at first but have to have meaning behind them to coerce the younster to stop. If not then a good swat on the bottom should be used. Just my .02 cents.
[ 24. January 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ss_rs_z ]
Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
Wow!! There are some fantastic responses here and some excellent advice!! Maybe SSOA should write books!
Anyway, gotta throw in my $.02....and like Mr. Garfinkle, I work with high-school-aged kids. One very important thing, but sometimes hard to do even when living in the same house, is to project a united front. That is, mom & dad should work at aligning their ideas on child-rearing so that the child does not have the opportunity to play one against the other. I see this a lot with divorced families....the child controls the family and holds each parent hostage by threatening to "go live with dad" or "go live with mom". If it is possible for both parents to agree on how different situations are to be handled, and to agree that whomever the child is living with at that particular time is non-negotiable, it can do a lot to cut down on the "power" that the child thinks he/she has over the parents.
Children basically do not want absolute power. They want and need limitations, BUT they also need age-appropriate measures of control over their own "self". In other words, parents should provide the framework of stability, guidance, love, and discipline....and then allow the child to make his/her own decisions regarding things that fit within this framework. As long as little "Millicent" is thoughtful of others and is a pleasure to be around, so what if she wears pink shoes with her green dress!!
Good luck with your son. And as has been said above, the very best thing you are doing right now is addressing the issues while you still can. I see far too many "child-tyrants" that have been allowed to rule the roost for way too long.
Posted by vargod (Member # 1116) on :
I appreciate all of the input. Sometimes I need a little advise. I've had to change the way I deal with people and family after working for 9 nines in a max prison. That is another reason I have not resorted to "spankings", just the idea of phyisical violence to address a problem is not the answer. However, at some point you just want to blow, that's when I turn and take a very large breathe.
This is why I spend most of my time on this board. The body of personal life experiences people are willing to share to lead support and advise.
Thank to all.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
Trust me, if you tighten a large hoseclamp around their heads, they'll forget ALL about being bad...perhaps that's why I don't have children...anyone need a babysitter? Posted by Pierre's FIREHAWK RAGTOP DAYS (Member # 1509) on :
Well i was brought up to respect my parents !! Never ever crossed my mind to back talk I KNEW what would happen Today parents let there kids get away with everything it seems. NOT IN MY DAY . Where are the parents MY 2 C or is it the KIDS raising the parents?????
[ 24. January 2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Pierre's FIREHAWK RAGTOP DAYS ]
Posted by DaddySS (Member # 848) on :
Some wise input here for you, you are all very kind to take the time to put so many thoughts to "paper".
My 12 year old daughter is going into some of the same behavior and I have found (as mentioned by Ellie and others above)that giving her a bit more lee way on the smaller stuff while being very precise and firm about the limits on the bigger things has given her "freedom" to show her individuality and rebellious side while understanding that there are lines you do not cross.
The fact that you are thinking hard and asking for advice is "a good thing".
Best of luck Posted by 2002Z4CSS (Member # 1393) on :
When I was growing up there was no back talking to my dad...or I would have gotten my butt kicked bad.Right now is the age you have to be firm with him before he becomes a teenager.I was very firm with my kids and still are even though they are 20 and 23. I think they learned respect at a very early age.I took away any excuses they may have had and both of them probably only got a handfull of spankings in their whole life. In the long run they will grow up to be good citizens. Posted by KenC (Member # 189) on :
maybe we can land line sometime.
take it from me......nip in in the bud now broh.
my son is 27 years old... he got that way around 10...and contnued downhill.
boys ranch in texas after being kick out of texas public school.
behaviour institute for 3 months to the tune of 35k dollars (insurance ran out).
dropped out of hs.
job corps..got kick out for drinkin and smokin dope.
ran away. defaulted payments on car loan, reposesed..i had to pay balance.
drug rehab.
now.....he's still in trouble with his life ....
weve done everything we can....the balls in his court.
nip it now.
ken
Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
quote:Originally posted by KenC: boys ranch in texas after being kick out of texas public school.
Cal Farley's?? My students' parents are ALWAYS asking me about boot camps, military schools, etc.,etc.
Were you pleased/displeased with the boys' ranch?? I'd really like to know from a "customer's" perspective....not the advertisers...thanx!
Posted by MaryandRalph (Member # 244) on :
Vargod; the first thing to remeber is that you are not alone. As stated by some wise people here many of us have faced this vary thing, each taking different paths to fix it. I spent my childhood being taught to respect my elders and the values of right and wrong, and still found trouble now and then. I thing the important thing to be is someone who is firm and fair. Never call the kid stupid or belittle in any way. ( if said to many times they start to believe it and they figure why bother trying anymore.) All kids can achieve greatness, they just have to be told this and shown that you believe it. Giving them chores to do is fair and does give them structure. But remember that there must be a "payoff" for them, clean your room, do your homework, and then you can go out or watch tv. And if they do not then they know what to expect.
Be firm and do not let up. His future depends on your love and guidance, even if that means being the heavy sometimes.
Posted by vargod (Member # 1116) on :
I let me wife read this thread. She was very impressed with everyones responses, including the proper use of a hose clamp.
I have to say that everyone has given my some new tools to work with. I have to say that when my ex and I first split he was only 4, but he knew then how to play her and I against each other. Regardless of our distain for one another we had to make ourselves talk to each other. He no longer tries to play her against I games. If something is going on I tell and and she does the same.
In reality he is a good kid, smart and likable. I've just seen too many go bad because their parents did not address their behavior. I just want to make sure what i do is right.
Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
With you two taking the time to talk again, could it be that maybe this has helped in some way? Maybe deep down within your son this could have been part of the problem?
Excuse me if I seem to be meddling as that isn't the case. Just looking to help find an answer. Posted by vargod (Member # 1116) on :
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: With you two taking the time to talk again, could it be that maybe this has helped in some way? Maybe deep down within your son this could have been part of the problem?
Excuse me if I seem to be meddling as that isn't the case. Just looking to help find an answer.
I don't think so. This problem has just recently occured. The talking started about 6 years ago when he started school. I felt that we had tocommunicate in order to illustrate a united front. Personally, I think it is just an 11 yr old boy wanting to be seen as someone older than what he is. He wants people to see his as an adult not as a child and the only way he knows how to do that is by trying to talk like how he perceive adults talk. The difference between him and I is that if I spoke to my elder that way my dad knocked the hell out of me. Since he spent once many years living with his mother he saw himself as her equal. She advised him on every aspect of her life whether it was money or personal things. He come up here thinking we were going to do the same and we don't. We treat him like an 11 yr old boy. I really think that is the true problem. That and just the normal griong pangs of life in general.
Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
I truly understand and thanks. I agree with youthat in our time if we got out of line with our parents we would be straightened up in a hurry. I just wonder how things changed so drastically over the years.
I hope everything turns out well for you and your son. Posted by BadRag (Member # 1566) on :
Alot of things have changed since i was a kid.... If you messed up in school, you got swat's with a paddle, now your parents get a phone call...maybe. I can remember getting smart with my Grandfather once...he took my into the bathroom and showed me his razor strap hanging on the back of the door, (remember those things?). He never used it on me, but it put the fear of God in me....Now days, if you spank a kid, they call the cops and say their being abused, and you go to jail...I don't have the awnsers you need, but my heart goes out to you. Being a parent in this day & age is really tuff. 'course, i don't think it has ever been easy.....Hope you guys can work it out.
Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
quote:Originally posted by BadRag: Now days, if you spank a kid, they call the cops and say their being abused, and you go to jail...
Actually, you don't go to jail. At least not here...
Several of my students have pulled that crap.....and God bless Dallas' finest!.....seems they tell the little $hits that what they are experiencing is NOT child abuse....and best they do what their parents tell them to do....and to please not call them again, as they have more important things to do! I was quite pleased to hear that! Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
well...first of all, it's (in my opinion) a lot harder to raise children these days. One look at the TV and you see that "smartmouthing" is an accepted behavior on TV.....and it's no wonder that kids are the way they are. I think Ward Cleaver would have knocked the Beaver into the middle of next week had he talked to him the way some kids talk to their parents on TV. (I know my mom would have beat me senseless with her slipper if I had!)
First...and foremost...no matter how bad things get, remember that YOU are the adult...and while you'd just LOVE to 'let 'er rip' at times, you MUST remember that you are the adult...count to 10, whatever...but lashing out does NOT help.
Second....bad attention is better than NO attention......not saying that you are not paying attention to the child (please keep in mind these are broad based ideas...not necessarily accusing you or your son of anything...) But..getting back to the point..children will do anything to get attention.....and even if it's a whack across the fanny, it's STILL attention, and that bad attention is better than no attention.
Three....I'd urge you to get counseling.....for both of you and each of you separately....that's what professionals are for.
Four...after the couseling commences, you need to set ground rules (develop them with the couselor if you have to) and stick to them. Break the rules, and there must be consequences.
Five...a 'heart to heart' talk when things are going good is worth a lot....it's important that your son know how much you really do love him..and want to see him grow up to be a respected member of the community..and be successful. It's important that kids this age know that they are loved....and that life is kinda hard, but you are there for them....I truly believe that children NEED to know that they are loved. (an "I love you" at bed time can get to the point where it's meaningless just because of the repetition) I believe that most children go thru the phase of "I hate mom and dad" ..and I guess I was lucky in that my phase lasted for less than a year (more about that in a minute)...my brother's on the other hand, seemed to last for an eternity...
Now, I think Elie (I think it was him that made this point) is right in that it is hard to explain using logic to a lot of kids...but while my father and I had a lot of rough times, I remember him sitting me down one day when things were good, and pointing out to me a fellow that was back in jail again...the town bully and all around loser....and he talked about what the kid had done in his earlier years....and I guess that talk kinda stuck to me, because whenever my father would blow a gasket over something, I'd think back to this guy that was in and out of jail all the time.....and perhaps if I really DID want to make something of myself, I'd better listen to my father ...and other fathers, rather than the 'loser' in jail.
And last...I'd pray. I don't know what your religion is, or if you are an agnostic, but even if you are, pray to the universe for guidance and answers.
Let us know how things are going...there's a whole bunch of great people on this board that want to help in any way we can.
One last thought....and this is from experience....several years ago, I worked with a mother of two...she had been trasferred to New Jersey from Kansas ...and the kids were not adapting real well...and there were a lot of behavoir problems. I was kinda liked by the kids, for whatever reason ('cause I drove a Camaro?????) anyway...one night the daughter and the mother got into a knockdown dragout......and the daughter called the mother a F---ing B----. I just happened to call about an hour later...and I made a drive over....and sat down with both kids and talked to them (without the mother present) about how tough it was for them to move...but how their mother really truly loved them and did this to provide a better life for them....( I spent the better part of three hours getting them to talk about their feelings....) long story short.....they started to back off with the smartmouthing.....and I guess my point is not that I'm a great couselor, but perhaps you need to look around you and see if there is someone that your son looks up to...and have that person talk to him about his problems and his frustrations.....just might be what the doctor ordered........
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NOT IN MY DAY .