Took my car to the dealership yesterday for several things. Due to scheduling issues it was just easier for me to take the car 1 place and have everything I needed done, done. 1) check out the shimmy in the wheel as I am slowing from 50 - 60 2) check out the left rear tire 3) rotate the tires 4) install SFC's 5) oil chg
Long story short, I get told that the front brakes need new pads. Specifically that the pads are at the wear indicators and no I shouldn't wait 2 wks for pay day to have them replaced & the rotors machined. The back ones were machined under warr so no biggie.
Now this dealership machined the rotors at 13K (I just passed 20K). What's normal wear for pads & rotors in a Camaro? Why would they need to be done at 13K & then again in 7K??
To top it all off they said it would $280. Thankfully Mel is less emotional about the car than I am and called around for other quotes. The shop on base quoted $150. He took it to them today and was told that we didn't need anything done. That there was approx 40% of the pads left. We went ahead and did the brake job since they were apart. Thankfully he brought the pads back home with him. If we are looking at the right thing there is def. alot of room left on those pads before the indicator is rubbing the rotor.
I intend to got the to VP of the dealership & the service mgr and complain about it. Does anyone have a picture of the indicator before I go in there though, so I'm sure of what I'm saying. This is the second time that they have told me to get work done that wasn't necessary. The first time is what lead me to such a great buy on my current car and is a long story.
Any suggestions/advice/experience in brake issues is much appreciated.
Posted by Harry (Member # 1834) on :
The wear indicators are small metal tabs at one end of the pad that are 90 degrees to the pads. They are designed so that when the lining wears too thin, they will begin to scratch the rotor, causing that screetching sound when you apply the brakes.
As far as normal wear on pads and rotors goes, unless you stand on the brakes every time you use them, they should still be in pretty good shape at 20,000 miles.
I hope this helps a bit.
Posted by Mike2001SS (Member # 2088) on :
Krista, This is nopt right in several ways. 1st unless you do all in town driving with lots and lots of stops all the time or you ride the brakes alot the pads on the camaro should last 60 to 100,000 miles depending on how many of the are hiway miles, I have had many many camaros over the years and on average put 70,000 miles or more on each one before tradeing the car and I have yet to ever have brakes lined on any of them. The one I have now which is a 2001 SS has 60,000 miles on it and I just had the brakes looked at and they are 1/2 pad left at 60,000 miles. The shimmy in the front wheels comes from warped rotors and you just need to turn the rotors is all. Warped rotors mostly comes from the dealer or tire store putting the wheels back on after a rotate with a air wrench insteed of a torque wrench
Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
Thanks for the replys guys. Anyone else with info please feel free to shout out. I'm going to need all the ammo I can get when I go talk to the VP and Svc Mgr.
This is the second time the rotors have been machined and as I said, she just passed 20K. I do mostly in town driving with alot of stop and starting. I didn't think I drove her hard but after talking to Mel I have a few habits that I need to try to change. Even given that, it seems a bit much that this has been done twice in such a short time. My Z or my 95 never had this done and I had the Z for 4 yrs.
Posted by Mike2001SS (Member # 2088) on :
Krista like I said make sure any shop that removes the wheels on these cars does not use a air-wrench to pit them back or they will warp again.
Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
I'll have to ask the shop from today on Mon and see what they'll tell me when I go to the dealership. But I'll file this away for the next time.
Posted by danss98 (Member # 1994) on :
Mike is absolutly right. I've got 91,000 on my 98 and just now is needing new pads. My driving is 50/50 city/hiway. Hell I get 40,000 or so out of pads that stop my 6000 lb. Suburban. Also not using a torque wrench to tighten the lugs will promote warpage of the rotors. Dealers make their money off non-warranty work which they don't see much of.
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
From my own personal experience I would say there is no way your brake pads can be worn out at 20K miles. Make the dealer pull a wheel again and show you the pads. If the brake pad material is down to less an 1/8 of an inch, then they should be replaced. But I doubt you will find this is the case. Your warped rotors are an ongoing issue that many people have had with their cars. My experience over the years is this problem can be prevented if your lug nuts on the wheels are installed with a hand operated torque wrench set to 100 foot-pounds (this is the setting for the Camaro). Getting the proper torque means you have even pressure around the wheel at the lugs and this is the main key to prevent warpage. Most dealers use air guns to tighten the nuts. They may also tell you their guns are set properly to torque the wheels correctly. But my experience is that the air guns don't do the job properly. And if you have already had your rotors turned once, I would recommend replacing them. Each time they turn the rotors they remove material from them and in affect make the rotor thinner. Thin rotors are more prone to warpage than a brand new set.
Based on everything you have said, I would take the car to an independent brake shop to have it looked at.
[ 21. February 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: SS_CarGuy ]
Posted by 2002Z4CSS (Member # 1393) on :
Lay the brake pad face down on a level surface and then the distance between the metal wear indiacator and the level surface will be seen. Sounds like that dealer tech wanted to make some easy cash. I need to open my new pole barn for work like this.I would kill everyone prices.
Posted by DanA_F99_1977 (Member # 118) on :
Just for calrification, there are a couple of things that will help reduce warping the front rotors.
1. When changing the wheels, use a torque wrench and make sure you do a crossing pattern. Don't go to 100lb in the first shot. I do 40, then 70 then 100 when I am putting my wheels back on. This gives a more even torque.
2. Don't do anyhting to the wheels when the rotors are still hot. Let them cool first.
3. When coming to a stop like off a ramp on the highway, don't hold your foot on the brake. Pull the E-brake and release the brakes. Hot rotors with the pads pressing on part of the rotor can cause warping.
Hope that helps a bit. I had one set of rotors warp early on. Since then, I have done these precautions and had my rotors cryo treated and have had no other problems.
Posted by MM (Member # 1247) on :
How long your brakes will last depends on your driving style... if you brake agressivly or two foot drive obviously they won't last as long... I've seen pads only go 20K and some a Lot Lot longer.... Also be careful of shops that quote a low ball price... you get what you pay for. You can go out and buy a set of $20 brake pads all day long... heck I've even seen $10 rotors. You will get what you pay for. Getting back to shops that quote a low price often they will sell you loaded calipers etc. More then half the time you don't need this... a simple rotor trun and slap pads on is all that is necessary... Also make sure when you buy pads etc. you are compaing apples to apples... non-ferrous vs ceramic aren't even close in price. Be an informend comsumer.... Right now I have been working a lot with brakes as a "special" project... Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
I'm sick to my stomach about all of this. Looking at the pads that came off yesterday it's clear even to me that they in no way needed to be changed yet.
I don't know what to ask for to compensate me for unnecessary work. I'm really worried that I'm goin got need a total brake job a lot sooner than I should and part of it is due to the rotors being machine when they shouldn't have been. And I'm thinking that the reason I was getting the shimmy again at 7K after they did them the first time is because they didn't put them back on right at the time.
Today I'm gonna pull a Scarlett and think about it tomorrow. But I'd still appreciate anyone's input for when I do go in and talk to them.
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krista: I'm sick to my stomach about all of this. Looking at the pads that came off yesterday it's clear even to me that they in no way needed to be changed yet.
I don't know what to ask for to compensate me for unnecessary work. I'm really worried that I'm goin got need a total brake job a lot sooner than I should and part of it is due to the rotors being machine when they shouldn't have been. And I'm thinking that the reason I was getting the shimmy again at 7K after they did them the first time is because they didn't put them back on right at the time.
Today I'm gonna pull a Scarlett and think about it tomorrow. But I'd still appreciate anyone's input for when I do go in and talk to them.
Take the pads with you and ask whomever you see at the dealer why they insisted on replacing the pads. If the "shimmy" you talk about was when applying your brakes, it's because the rotors were warped and they did need turning (or replacing). That was probably caused by improper torquing of the wheels from the last time they turned the rotors. Also, ask them to loosen and retoque all your wheels now with a hand operated torque wrench to prevent it from happening again!! BTW, if they give you a hard time about refunding some money for unecessary work, tell them you will report them to the Better Business Bureau........that usually get's their attention.
Posted by danss98 (Member # 1994) on :
[ BTW, if they give you a hard time about refunding some money for unecessary work, tell them you will report them to the Better Business Bureau........that usually get's their attention. [/QB][/QUOTE] You can also tell them you and everybody you know will never come there for service again. Word of mouth advertising is still the most effective, good or bad.Good Luck
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
Isn't car maintenance a joy!! Krista, I know of your frustration in trying to get work done properly. I have been there far far too many times.
In terms of your brakes and pad wear, I think others have covered that more than adequately and I can add nothing to what has been said.
In terms of your shimmy, I agree that it is caused by warped rotors. Warped rotors are more than likely caused by improper lug nut tightening, in that, a cross or star tightening pattern was not been followed. Warpage is not necessarily in and of itself caused by use of an air impact gun.....it just that the majority of the clowns called mechanics today do not know how to use an impact gun properly and are lazy. Use of a hand torque wrench forces them to think about what they are doing. Please note, you can still get rotor warpage with a hand torque wrench if the tightening sequence/pattern is not properly followed.
Most of the clowns just got around the wheel and tighten the lug nuts to the setting on the gun, which is usually higher than 100 ft-lbs. This sets up an undeven stress in the rotors and then when they get hot the stress is relieved by....well warping the rotors.
I have religiously hand torqued ny wheels following the star pattern with NO warpage problems. On one set of rotors I had 50,000+ miles on them and they were used for lapping and Solo I as well. They had been hot enough that they had discolored (bluish tinge) with surface micro cracking. Still NO warpage.
I would also suggest that you hunt around for an independent shop that has a "remarkable" reputation and then stick with them for all your work. We have done this for both of our cars (Vette and Firebird) with extremely good results. They know us and we know how they operate. I trust them implicitly and they have carte blanche with both cars. For those who know me (Elie) this is quite a statement....becasue I am fussy on how and who get near our cars.
Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
Thanks Bill. I really want one person/place to take my car to. You have alot less explaining and frustration. I thought I had some of that with this single service mgr I take it to at the dealership. I guess it really doesn't matter a bit about the service mgr since he's not much more than the mouthpiece, I need to know about the mechanics.
Anyone have a good independent in Phoenix? I live in NW Valley but would travel within reason.
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
The problem with dealers and service managers is they come and they go. It's like a revolving door!!
With an independent shop...it's his business. You know he will be there to-morrow and his reputation and future business is at stake everytime he touches your car. Thus he is more inclined to do a good job and keep you happy. The good shops understand this.
Over the years, I had developed a deep distrust for dealers. Then when I got the Firebird, I found a really good dealer. I went again my instincts and dealt with them exclusively. I was also completely honest with them to a fault. This lasted for 4 years, then their service department approach changed with new management. They turned into real bastards and cost me a TON of money (i.e.: in the thousands of dollars). They also refused to warranty their work and did criminally shoddy work.
Now, I simply will not go near a dealer and have found two great owner/operator shops.
I hope someone can suggest a good shop for you. Good luck!
Posted by CamaroSCG (Member # 1591) on :
There's some good tips in the GM bulletin, like making sure the hub and wheel studs are clean, and mounting the rotor in same position that it came off the hub. I would think that this would also apply to 2002 cars. Here is the bulletin. Good Luck.
Warranty Admin. - Brake Rotor Warranty Service Procedure #00-05-22-002 Brake Rotor Warranty Service Procedure 1995-2000 Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
This bulletin outlines GM's standard procedures and guidelines for brake rotor service and brake wear.
Important Certain conditions may apply to individual vehicles regarding specific repairs which differ from those outlined in this bulletin. Refer to those specific repairs in applicable bulletins.
Original equipment rotor surfaces are ground to ensure smooth finish and parallelism between mounting and friction surfaces. New rotors SHOULD NOT be resurfaced before installation. When rotor turning is necessary, it is essential that you use a high quality brake lathe. Rotors, when remounted on the hub, should have less than .080 mm (.003 in) lateral runout. Brake rotors should only be turned when one of the following rotor surface conditions exist:
Severe scoring -- depth in excess of 1.5 mm (0.060 in). Pulsation concerns from: Lateral runout in excess of .080 mm (.003 in). Thickness variation in excess of 0.025 mm (0.001 in). Excessive corrosion on rotor braking surfaces. Rotors are not to be resurfaced in an attempt to correct the following conditions:
Noise/squeal Cosmetic corrosion Routine pad replacement Discoloration/hard spots Explanation of Brake Rotor Warranty Service Procedure Rotor refacing during normal pad replacement is not necessary. Rotor refacing for cosmetic corrosion is unnecessary. Clean up of braking surfaces can be accomplished by 10-15 moderate stops from 62-75 km/h (35-40 mph) with cooling time between stops. Rotor service is ineffective in correcting brake squeal and/or premature lining wear out and should not be used to address these conditions unless specifically directed by a service bulletin. When installing new rotors, DO NOT reface them. If a new rotor has more than .080 mm (.003 in) lateral runout when properly mounted on the hub, it may be machined using an approved on-car lathe. Ensure bearing flanges and rotor mounting surfaces are free of corrosion when installing rotors to prevent inducing lateral runout. Use Kent Moore tool J-42450A to clean the corrosion around the wheel studs. Always mark the position of the rotor on the hub before removal and reinstall the rotor in the same position. Rotors with perceived hard spots or discoloration should not be serviced. These conditions are normal. Installation of new rotors does not require pad replacement. Do not replace pads unless their condition requires it. It is not necessary to replace rotors in pairs. Rotors may be replaced individually. However, caution should be exercised, as a variance in surface finish may cause a brake pull condition. A torque limiting socket or torque wrench must be used to insure that the wheel nuts are tightened to specification. This should be done in 3 steps using the star pattern: Hand tighten all 5 lug nuts using the star pattern. Tighten all 5 nuts to approximately ½ spec. using the star pattern. Tighten all 5 nuts to full spec. using the star pattern. Never use lubricants or penetrating fluids on wheel studs, nuts or mounting surfaces. Wheel nuts, studs and mounting surfaces must be clean and dry. Brake Service Techniques Clean and lubricate all metal-to-metal contact points (i.e. caliper to knuckle, pad to knuckle, etc). Clean and lubricate slide pins, if applicable. Set correct clearances (i.e. caliper to knuckle, etc), if applicable. Clean rotor and hub mounting surfaces. Use Kent Moore tool J-42450 to clean around the wheel studs. Verify lateral runout of the rotor with a dial indicator (rotor held on hub with 3 or more wheel nuts and washers).
Important Refer to the appropriate Service Manual for more specific procedures.
Pulsation
Important Brake pulsation is often caused by factors outside customer control. In these instances, the repair is covered under the GM New Vehicle Warranty.
Brake pulsation concerns may result from two basic conditions:
Pulsation is caused by brake rotor thickness variation. Thickness variation causes the piston in the brake caliper to "pump" in and out of the caliper housing. This "pumping" effect is transmitted hydraulically to the brake pedal. Thickness variation on a new rotor will be virtually undetectable. But if the rotor (as installed on the vehicle) has lateral runout, it is likely that thickness variation will develop. Pulsation caused by thickness variation will develop on new vehicles when the tolerances of the hub and rotor stack up with lateral runout in excess of .08 mm (.003 in). Pulsation that is the result of excessive lateral runout usually develops in 4800-11300 kilometers (3000-7000 miles). Thickness variation can be induced when uneven torque is applied to wheel nuts (lug nuts). Improper wheel tightening after tire rotation, spare tire usage, brake inspection, etc. can be the cause of pulsation. Again, it usually takes 4800-11300 kilometers (3000-7000 miles) after this event for the condition to surface. The owner or driver does not usually make the connection between the service event and the awareness of the pulsation. The proper usage of torque wrenches and/or torque sticks (torque limiting sockets) will greatly reduce or eliminate the pulsation conditions after wheel service events. The improper use of impact wrenches on wheel nuts greatly increases the likelihood of pulsation after wheel service. GM highly recommends the use of on-car brake rotor turning as a method of eliminating the stack up of lateral runout which is a potential source of brake pulsation. GM has identified superior equipment through testing and evaluation. The *Pro-Cut PFM900 will consistently deliver machined rotors that meet GM specifications (lateral runout less than .080 mm (.003 in) and is the only on-car brake lathe that is currently recommended by GM. The use of this on-car rotor turning technology has proven to significantly reduce the repeat occurrences of brake pulsation.
*We believe this source and their equipment to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such equipment. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the equipment from this firm or for any such items which may be available from other sources.
The following are examples of pulsation conditions and reimbursement recommendations:
If a customer noticed the condition after 4800-11300 kilometers (3000-7000 miles) and it gradually got worse, normally the repair would be covered. The customer may tolerate the condition until it becomes very apparent. If a customer indicated they had wheel service, ask who performed the service. Then: If a dealer performed the service, consider paying for the repair and then strongly reinforce the use of torque sticks at that dealer. Two common size torque sticks cover 90% of all GM products. Each technician needs to use torque sticks properly every time the wheel nuts are tightened. If the customer had the wheel service done outside of our dealer network, normally GM would not offer any assistance. Customer assistance concerning brake pulsation and brake wear should always take into account the individual circumstances on a case by case basis. The recommendations mentioned previously should only be used as a general guide. REMEMBER THAT CUSTOMER SATISFACTION IS CRITICAL TO GM AND THAT OFTEN IT IS IN GM'S BEST INTEREST TO SATISFY AND EDUCATE THE CUSTOMER CONCERNING FUTURE BRAKE SERVICE.
Rotor Grooving Excessive grooving can be caused by foreign material in contact with the rotor, but most often rotor grooving is the result of normal brake wear. Do not resurface rotors for light grooving. Resurface rotors only when grooves of 1.5 mm (0.060 in) or deeper are present.
A dime may be used to determine disc brake groove depth. Place a dime in the groove, with Roosevelt's head toward the groove. If the dime goes into the groove beyond the top of his head, the groove exceeds 1.5 mm (0.060 in) and the rotor should be serviced. In Canada, if any portion of the letters of "Canada" are covered, the rotor should be serviced. If the groove is too narrow for the dime to be inserted, it is not a cause for concern.
High Pedal Effort Follow the Service Manual diagnostic procedures for this condition. Service (replace or resurface) rotors if they have been recently resurfaced. The surface finish may be out-of-specification.
Lightly Rusted Rotors Light surface rust on rotor braking surfaces is often cosmetic and can be eliminated during a few normal driving stops. Rusting may occur when a vehicle is not driven for extended periods. Rotors with surface rust on unsold new cars can usually be burnished clean by performing 15 moderate stops from 62-75 km/h (35-40 mph) with cooling time between stops.
Facts About Brake Noise Brake noise is normal and differences in loading, type of driving, or driving style can make a difference in brake wear on the same make and model. Depending on weather conditions, driving patterns and the local environment, brake noise may become more or less apparent.
Brake noise is caused by a "slip stick" vibration of brake components. While intermittent brake noise may be normal, performing 3-4 aggressive stops may temporarily reduce or eliminate most brake squeal. If the noise persists, a brake dampening compound may be applied to the back of each pad. Use Permatex Disc Brake Quiet #126hb, or equivalent. Also, clean and lubricate all metal-to-metal contact areas between pads, pad guides, caliper and knuckles with a thin layer of high temperature silicone grease. This allows parts to slide freely and not vibrate when moving relative to each other.
The following noises are characteristic of all braking systems and are unavoidable. They may not indicate improper operation of the brake system.
Squeak/Squeal Noise Occurs with front semi-metallic brake pads at medium speeds when light to medium pressure is applied to the brake pedal. Occasionally a noise may occur on rear brakes during the first few stops or with cold brakes and/or high humidity. Grinding Noise Common to rear brakes and some front disc brakes during initial stops after the vehicle has been parked overnight. Caused by trace corrosion on the metal surfaces during vehicle non-use. Usually disappears after a few stops. Groan Noise A small groan may be heard when stopping quickly or moving forward slowly from a complete stop. This is normal.
Brake Wear Several factors impact brake lining wear and should be taken into account when reviewing related issues.
The following are conditions that may accelerate brake lining wear:
Heavy loads High temperatures Towing Mountainous terrain City Driving Aggressive driving Driver braking characteristics (left foot) The following are conditions that may extend brake lining wear:
printed to take with me. thanks for the ammo. Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
Update
I'll be picking up a check for the full amount I paid the shop on base tomorrow.
The svc mgr was not a happy camper when he saw the brake pads.
Couldn't get anything extended on the rotors. But I want to make sure they replace them before the warr expires. How do I make sure they will?
Posted by SS_CarGuy (Member # 2065) on :
Way to go Krista!!!!!!!!!!
As for your rotors, just make sure your lug nuts get retorqued by hand to the 100 ft/lbs for now. Hopefully they will last a lot longer this way. As far as getting them replaced, I would wait when/until they go bad again and have an independent mechanic replace them with some better aftermarket units. I doubt the dealer will replace them for you at this point.
Posted by CamaroSCG (Member # 1591) on :
quote:Originally posted by SS_CarGuy: Way to go Krista!!!!!!!!!!
As for your rotors, just make sure your lug nuts get retorqued by hand to the 100 ft/lbs for now. Hopefully they will last a lot longer this way. As far as getting them replaced, I would wait when/until they go bad again and have an independent mechanic replace them with some better aftermarket units. I doubt the dealer will replace them for you at this point.
^Ditto-stand there and watch them tighten the lugs nuts if you can. Just like the TSB say's-3 passes for each wheel, in a star pattern.
[ 25. February 2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: CamaroSCG ]
Posted by Raven (Member # 1962) on :
If this is a auto. I hope you do not drive with two feet. My wife does and brakes are a yearly event. BAD HABIT Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
I asked about what they are tightened with and mentioned the old 40-70-100 in a star pattern.
I need to try to find out what the guy at the base shop did. I wasn't going to ask the dealership to check his work.
I'm worried that now that they've beeen machined twice they are going to need to be replaced alot sooner than they should be. That means I've got to spend $$ sooner than I should due to someone at the dealerships neglect/piss poor job.
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
Krista, the TSR specified wheel torquing in three steps of:
1. Hand tighten 2. 50% of spec (50 ft-lbs) 3. 100% of spec (100 ft-lbs)
This is how I tighten my wheels. At all three steps, I always follow the star/cross pattern. If I am tightening or even checking torque it is in a star pattern. Heck I even take the lug nuts OFF in the star pattern.
It is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that at each step you get some rotation of the lug nut on the stud, as this means you are actually tightening the lug nut and stretching the stud rather than just applying a force against the static friction between the lug nut and the stud.....which does absolutely nothing to actually tighten the lug nut.
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
Krista, I did the brake pads myself on my firebird over the christmas holidays. Factory pads, i had 59,790 miles on them. When i took them off, they still had about 35%-40% of their life left. I would suggest that you ask them to show you the pad, and have them look up the specification for amount of pad material left, and measure it for you. I think they are trying to sucker you into new pads.
As for rotors, Gm rotors are notorious for being crap, and warping. However, the warping is accelerated by over-torquing the rotors, which is done pretty much all the time. The proper factory torque specification is 100 ft lbs, which you should be able to measure with a torque wrench.
FYI: The brake pads alone for front and rear axle on my car were about $90 (front and rear axle both), and i bought the best that autozone had, so your quote from a brake shop of $150 is about right, assuming that you do need to have them replaced.
I think you are getting screwed, but then again, thats what dealers are for!!!
Hope you get it all sorted out.
Posted by muscle96ss (Member # 2203) on :
Krista, which dealership are you dealing with? I have had nothing but problems with most of the Phoenix dealerships:
Chapman: Blew my Auburn out twice and filled it with the improper fluids when repairing finally.
Brown and Brown: Also filled the Auburn with the wrong fluids after it was rebuilt at 3,000 miles.
Courtesy: They had to call me to get the part numbers for the proper fluid for the Auburn during yet another Auburn repair. When I told them to call SLP to get the part numbers, they said, "Who is SOP?". They didn't even know who SLP was.
Thoroughbred: They replaced the axle assembly with Auburn included last week after I finally convinced the GM rep that you can't use synthetic fluids with the Auburn option and that the 20,000 miles of running synthetic was probably why it kept on breaking(he inisisted that synthetic was the proper fluids for a few months until he finally called SLP). When finished, the service manager(Steve Marley) there stated that my cutout(which dumps out under the passenger seat) was heating up the pinion seal and that they would not do any future warranty repairs on it(IMPOSSIBLE). They also found out that my front rotors were warped. They had been warped with very excessive lateral runout at 11,000 and exactly 1 year ago at 15,000. They have been pulsating again for the past few months so I knew they were warped again. However, they refuse to fix it even after I pointed out the Service Bulletin posted above. They say it is a maintenance wear issue.
Anyways, I have had it with these incompetent dealerships and GM reps that don't even know their own products. If you find a good one out here let me know.
Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
I remember you guys from when we met up with Fbod Father!
I've bought all of my Camaro's from Sands and have gone there when something needs to be done. I want to find an independent to take her to. I got the $$ for the brake job back in full from Sands even though they didn't do the work which was very cool on their part. I also had it with in 2 days of coming in to talk to the Svc Mgr which was also a nice chg from 5 yrs ago.
I live in NW Valley and haven't been to any of the other dealerships but if I hear something about a good place to take f-body's I'll post.
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
Krista, It just dawned on me that one of the things to ask about when looking for a new shop is whether they work and charge by the book flat rate or on the actual time it takes to do the work.
IMHO, you want a shop that charges by the time it takes to actually get the work done.
The problem with flat rate is that the technicans are incented to beat the flat rate. In essence, they get paid by the job (flat rate) so if they finish a job in less than the flat rate, they can book onto the next job, beat that rate, and go on to the next one and so on.....
This means they get paid for more hours than they actually worked. Its how they make more money. The shop does the same with its customers. It charges the book flat rate. They also book in more work than there are working hours knowing that the flat rate will be beat. Doing this makes them more money.
So the priority in the shop is to NOT do quality work but to do the MOST jobs in the shortest time. This can mean cutting corners, skipping work, etc.
Care to guess how dealerships work???????
BTW, the shops I now go to charge by the time taken. This can be more expensive at times, but in the end I think it costs less becasue the work is doen right....the first time.
Posted by Krista (Member # 1904) on :
Thanks Bill. Something I didn't know anything about and def a question I'll ask when I start shopping around.
Posted by westell (Member # 2034) on :
being the enthusiast you are, why not just upgrade to some power slot rotors / hawk pads ?
you can do the front now, do the rear later.
that's a medioum price, and if you want to spend money, go for eradispeeds.
if you warped your rotors, then it makes no sense to throw on the old pads, regardless of wear percentage, whether you machine your warped ones, or replace with oem or aftermoarket.
good luck. Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
I for one do not see that much wrong with the stock rotors. In one of my previous posts I said I put 50,000 miles on one set of stock rotors that had seen a lot of heat. They were discolored and had micro surface cracks on them from being so hot.The only reason I replaced them is they had a HUGE gouge in them (must have been a rock wedged into the pads) and I did not trust them for high-speed track use.
The current rotors have 55,000 miles on them.
Neither set of rotors have had any warpage issues, and have never needed to be turned.
However,the wheels are ALWAYS hand torqued in three steps in the star pattern.....ALWAYS ALWAYS....no exceptions.
I am not saying to not use the more expensive rotors. Personally I would really like to have a set of Eradispeeds. All I am saying is treated right the stock rotors will last.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
when you apply the brakes.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)