the latest fatiality statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin. caused a major consumer group and one U.S. Senator to call for the development and passage of more stringent new auto safety legislation......in the form of safer vehicles......
well.............
i'm going to have fun on this...because im he GSA Fleet representative for NHTSA ........and will get to sit in on some of these meetings... and i'm going to take a stand. enough IS enough........
short of suiting the driving public in armor and making everyone drive an M1 tank.........there is nothing you can do to stop this metal and pavement death madness......except 1 thing:
crack down big time on the driving public.
forcing the industry to beef up the vehciles mean price hikes on the offerings, it means less gas mileage from heavier vehicles in most cases..... and......... it does not matter.......
when you get some jerkweed in his/her suv......doing 85 in a 65, switching lanes back and forth.......cutting people off.....and then suddenly ...some person changes lanes in thier path....the jerk the wheel..the suv rolls at 85mph...hits two other cars/vehicles... you have death........i dont car how many airbags you have.....or what type of seatbelt harness......
ive been driving since i was 15..........and im 57.. im sure some folks here can relate that in the last 5 years, especially...the American driving public has lost respect for not only the automobile..but for eachother when they get behind the wheel. "me first".............."me me me me"....... running red lights, doing 90mph on the interstate...... no turn signals......tailgating at high speeds.........improper lane changes.......cutting across parking lots at high speeds.........flying through neighborhoods where children and peoples pets are present by the roadway........driving on drugs........driving on booze..........old people driving that cant even pass the eye exam and who's reaction time does not exist.........driving on unsafe tires........driving in unsafe vehicles.........stereo's cranked so loud they couldnt hear a 747 must less an ambulance........yakin on the cell phone in another world.........street racing on busy public roadways...........
no.......... building "safer" vehicles wont fix nuttin..........nadda.........
we need to 'fix' the drivers...........
how? more law enforcement. ... and im not just talking about cops pulling folks over writing tickets........ l a w e n f o r c e m e n t...............stiffer fines, much stiffer....more "loss of driving privelage" actions , more cameras and monitoring system development......stricter driving tests for license aquisition and renewal.......more regulations about what you can and cant do while driving......ie.: cell phones, ie: stereo's so loud the person in the car next to it has to close thier windows.....
in 2003 approx. 43,220 Americans lost thier lives on the road.... it was 42,815. SUV roll-over deaths rose 10% during this period...and guess what? those deaths represented 55% of all fatalities involved with suv's!!!!!!!!!!
it's time. America's driving public needs to take a deep breath...sit back......think about the responsibility of driving an automobile........get rid of "im bullet proof...........it will never happen to me"......attitude. cause if not............ more and more people will die..........and vehicles will cost more and more ....and safety devices will be overflowing out the windows........ and it wont change jack......................
or jim, or pete, or silvia, or judy........or.......
Posted by CamaroSCG (Member # 1591) on :
Everybody is in a hurry these days! Speeding, running yellow/red lights, etc! "more lawenforcement...............stiffer fines, much stiffer....more "loss of driving privelage" actions , more cameras and monitoring system development......stricter driving tests for license aquisition and renewal.......more regulations about what you can and cant do while driving......ie.: cell phones, ie: stereo's so loud the person in the car next to it has to close thier windows....." I agree!
Posted by danss98 (Member # 1994) on :
Amen brother!!!
Posted by Xsta Z 28 (Member # 740) on :
Agree 100% You can make the vehicle safer, but with out safer drivers its like putting a loaded gun in a 2 year olds hands . . .
People drive worse and worse. We need to stop the drivers. Now I am no saint by any means but, the punishments for breaking the law are too weak, they do not enforce good driving.
Plus there are too many crappy cars on the roads, smashed cars, cars with missing lights, cars with bad suspension, cars leaking fluids, these cars must be gotten rid of. If you cannot maintain your car you lose your car, having a car is not a right, it is s privalage, and it must be earned.
Why should we all suffer the prices of more expensive car riddled with air bags here, there and everywhere - hell build us all bubbles, there are idiot out there that would still figure out how to kill some one.
These days I'm almost scared to drive the SS's . . .
[ 14. May 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Xsta Z 28 ]
Posted by Thom Mackesy (Member # 264) on :
Well said Ken.
In my previous life I drove delivery routes and got to see a lot of stuipid and selfish driving. Now I'm a long distance commuter and deliberatly avoid taking the highway to and from work because it's only gotten worse since then. People have been ignoring the rules of the road for a long time. They are there for a reason and that is to make it safer and easier for EVERYONE to travel.
It's time to get everyone on the same page.
[ 14. May 2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Thom Mackesy ]
Posted by TimeLord (Member # 1389) on :
Amen to that !!!!!
I Hyperspeed on the highway[5-6 A.M Sunday]I admit it,but I observe EVERY other law,lights,stops,yeilds,schoolzones etc.etc.
If everyone did the same,we could all drive Pintos and live!!!!!!
Posted by fenton23 (Member # 878) on :
Ken, you hit the nail on the head with this one!
Posted by poSSum (Member # 119) on :
quote: I just wish that "they" would put half as much effort into improving the idiot instead of idiot proofing the cars.
Pretty soon we'll be driving around cars that self-destruct on impact to create a bundle of balloons to protect us.
I wish I could recall which editorialist had stated that if we really want safer cars, we need to place a stiletti on every stearing wheel.
Posted by Doug Harden (Member # 1796) on :
Preach it brother!
This is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves....
Here in Indiana, a few years ago, they took Driver's Ed out of the High School curriculum and made it a summer course for those lucky enough to get on the list before it filled up and be able to afford the $300 fee.
How is the ONE most important life skill relegated to a summer course?!?
I have LONG advocated PROVING that you can actually drive a car...in all situations, BEFORE you are given a license.
If they took even half the money associated with reacting to bad driving.....i.e. law enforcement, insurance rates, etc..... and spent it on building and staffing State sponored driving schools that you HAD to pass or not be given a license, we'd save more lives and have better drivers to boot.
There isn't a politician on the planet that will touch this issue, but at some point it is inevitable.....
[ 14. May 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Doug Harden ]
Posted by KurtK (Member # 1779) on :
THANK YOU Ken!
I agree - to me, it's all about personal responsibility, and how it is seeemingly disappearing from our society.
I'm not sure that more law enforcement will help, unless we hire a lot more police and stick cameras everywhere (just what Ken said). Do we want to be in a society under that type of scrutiny?
Just look at the attitude towards firearms ( I know- this is a hot issue with everyone here). My father-in-law used to take his rifle to school (he lived in rural CT). There wasn't any mass shootings at school.
Now there's all kinds of people getting shot up over anything, and look at the attitude of who is doing the shooting.
Unfortunately this whole issue is a symptom of society- and how are we going to change? Have we engendered generations who look to others (or the government) to be responsible?
[ 15. May 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: KurtK ]
Posted by Hawkeye (Member # 88) on :
Tougher licensing for sure. Who cares if you can parallel park? I want you tested on the highway in real life situations.
I now have 4 of my kids driving and they all completed drivers ed. Now that thats over with, they can really learn to drive. A course like Bragg-Smith does on day one, would not hurt anyone.
Posted by xero (Member # 2001) on :
well one reason for some of this is places like here in Georgia. We DONT have to take drivers ed, and our DRIVING tests are in a frigen parking lot! And if that wasn't enough my friend turned the wrong way twice and bumped a guard rail on her drivers test a few years back and STILLLLLLL got her license. Required drivers ed and more strict testing is a very good place to start on this! Posted by Opie (Member # 2007) on :
This is a no brainer. Don't give Americans a choice. Make all cars the same size, weight and can't go over 25 mph. Model T time again. Oh sure you will still have some fatals can't stop them all, but they will be greatly reduced.
Posted by JohnS (Member # 1073) on :
Right on!
To quote my retired Traffic Sergeant father, "It doesn't matter how good you build the cars, it only takes one loose nut behind the wheel to cause an accident."
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
While I agree things have gotten bad, I do not agree with an approach that it should be changed with even more law enforcement. I believe that the problems are much more fundemental than what more law enforcement can fix. These problems have been brewing for a very long time and it is only within the last 4-5 years that it has become quite evident.
The problems we see on the road today are a direct reflection on what our society, or "WE" now accept and permit as acceptable behavior. As I see it, the way to change what we see today MUST start at home and how our children are brought up.
By this I mean kids should be taught that there are consequences to their actions and they should be required to bear those consequences and consequences can be quite unpleasant.....that's life. Kids need to be taught that it is not always someone else's fault for what they do wrong or their mistakes. Kids need to be be taught RESPECT for others, and they are not the center of the universe. Kids need to taught that it takes effort, commitment and soemtimes sacrifice to get the things they want.
I could go on and on, but......dare I say it.....parents MUST accept responsiblity for the raising of their children and the values they learn. Not the schools, not the teachers, not the police......
It really bugs me that people today think it should always be someone else's responsibility to do somthing. I strongly believe it starts with each and every one of us with the values we live by, and it begins by what we learn at home.
Posted by Brians-SS (Member # 1988) on :
i agree with ya ken. more crazy drivers on the road everyday. and i dont know how some of these jerks get their licences...i teach people how to drive and omg i fear for my life everytime i have to teach anyone over the age of 24. they cant drive and almost kill me in the process, lol. deffinately stricter driving tests...in every state.
Posted by Camaro_Woody (Member # 1619) on :
Ken, thank you for saying that. People look at me wierd when they hear that I dont speed in my car. I am 22, and have had her for 2 years. There is no reason to be reckless on the roads. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know!
Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
ok....let me make this VERY clear...the opinions you are about to hear are the opinions of ME, not GM...or Ford or DCX........
Ken, kudos to you. Amen, brother!
It is ridiculous that in some states, a person can get a driver's license without even driving the car! Moreover, once you take the test, that's it in most states...no retesting.
I shake my head here in Michigan where a stop sign in most parts of Detroit means "slow down to 20 as you roll thru..." Right turn on red? "just slow down enough that you don't roll it!!!"
Look...the manufacturer can keep putting more and more padding in the vehicle...at a substantial cost....but until the REAL problem is fixed...and that is driver error, people are gonna die!
MY RULES:
First...SIT THE HELL UP STRAIGHT! THE DRIVER'S SEAT IS NOT A BARALOUNGER OR A LAZYBOY!!!! There is no way you can control a car while practically lying down in it!
TWO....turn the damned stereo down! How are you supposed to hear what's going on around you....furthermore, I don't want to hear you coming from a block away...unless it's a Chevy Small block!
THREE....if the lights are broken, fix them!
FOUR....check the air pressure in your tires...at least once a month! It frightens me to see the number of people driving at a high rate of speed with 15 pounds of air in the tires.....and you WONDER why you have a blowout?????
FIVE..if I catch you without a saftey belt on, I swear I'm gonna pull you over....and remove your face with an airwrench...then sew it on upside down!!!!! WE PUT THEM IN THERE TO SAVE YOU!!!!!!
SIX....You wanna talk? PULL OVER! I don't care WHO you are, there is no way that you can talk on a cellphone and drive at the same time....I don't care if you're Jeff Gordon, Dale Jr, John Heinricy, Andy Pilgrim.......NOBODY!
SEVEN....IT is a PRIVILEDGE to drive in this country, not a right.
EIGHT....if you have children, spend some money and put 'em thru a driving school. A GOOD driving School.
NINE: if you are in the left lane...and there are cars behind you....right behind you..and the right lane is clear.....MOVE OVER! (no, despite what you may think, you do NOT own the road....)
TEN:...let me formally introduce you to that lever to the immediate left of the steering wheel...the one protruding out of the steering column...yeah, that one...the one real close to your starbucks latte......it is called a TURN SIGNAL......thou shalt use it to warn people that you would like to change lanes.....OR...that you want to make a turn. And PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE....put it on BEFORE you get to the intersection.....if you put it on after you're stopped at a red light.....you should be ticketed.
ELEVEN: remember the golden rule...it reads "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That's great advice for EVERYTHING in life....but especially for courteous driving.....
TWELVE: IF you see that the road ahead is being brought down from two lanes to one lane (construction)....get over....no it is NOT ok for you to pass everyone else. I don't care HOW special you think you are!
sorry.........wow........really got on a rant there.......
(break time.......)
AND ANOTHER THING: Have a clear head when you're on the road......that means if you're tired, pull over and have a cup of coffee...(hint: soup wakes you up by giving you a natural boost in energy......) IF YOU ARE GOING TO DRINK OR TAKE DRUGS, GIVE THE KEYS TO SOMEONE ELSE. IF YOU ARE CAUGHT DRINKING AND DRIVING.....OR TAKING DRUGS, YOU DESERVE TO LOSE YOUR LICENSE...FOR A LONGGGGGGG TIME!
(ok.....I'll shut up now.......)
[ 14. May 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Fbodfather ]
Posted by Xsta Z 28 (Member # 740) on :
I still agree 100% with all of you.
Posted by Mike2001SS (Member # 2088) on :
Well said everyone
Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
Couldn't have said it any better Posted by KevinA (Member # 139) on :
Amen.
I agree with Bill & Scott.
it's way to easy to get a license to drive, and nobody has respect anymore on the road. I watched some idiot weaving in & out of traffic today in Albany NY. We were already doing 75 (10 over) and he starts darting in and out, almost clipped my Saab and 5 other cars only to slam on his brakes so he didn't hit the person he could not get around.
A week ago here in town, a mini van load of teens out at lunch from School were traveling at a high rate of speed, lost control and rolled the van multiple times. 1 dead, 4 serious, 2 minor injuries. They caled it driver inatention. I call it screwing around combined with lack of experience.
Posted by 01ss87iroc (Member # 1763) on :
Well said! Good luck in the board room bro!
Posted by BrostalSS (Member # 1830) on :
You should see the things I see on an everyday basis. It amazes me how people make it from point A to point B with all the fenders in tact.
Posted by 99 HOSS (Member # 109) on :
I agree with it all, and Fbodfather, don't ever shutup.
Ken, I hope you can atleast 'steer' them in the right direction. 'Cause you're right, as was everyone one else who responded, it's way past the point of giving them a 'brake' and letting it slide. I listen to the portable boom-box approach my house a 1/4 mile away, pass and slowly disappear the other way, or the 5' soccer mom driving an Excursion who can barely see over the steering wheel, let along out back (manufacturers are actually putting in rear facing cameras into SUVs and mini-vans now), the young folks with a lack of experience behind the wheel to understand the basic physics of driving and what a car is capable of when out of control.
I've been driving and racing since I was 16. I'm now 51. I'm currently a Hi-Performance driving instructor with N.A.S.A.-VA who is willing to sit in that right hand seat to help better educate someone in the fine art of handling an automobile. Not solely for learning to go fast (and safely) around a road course, but to, hopefully, carry it over onto the street and the everyday driving chores that we all have. I taught both of my children to drive when they were young and I'll do the same for my two grandchildren when they're old enough. Hopefully by then there will be a formal education process back in place and I'll just have to suppliment that.
[ 15. May 2004, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: 99 HOSS ]
Posted by vyto2 (Member # 2265) on :
I've been riding the train to work now for 15 years. Used to be when I drove to work I would avoid a good 6 or 7 potential accidents every morning. People snoozing behind the wheel, reading, putting on makeup, running stop signs and red lights, changing lanes without looking, turning from side streets without looking. There is definitely a mentality out there that people think it's our job to watch out for them. It's only gotten worse with all the SUV's out there, now they feel safe that anything can hit them and they'll be OK. What about the poor guy in the car they just crushed? Thank god I have a train to take, saved my sanity and probably my life...
Posted by MM (Member # 1247) on :
I agree with both Ken and Scott... you guys hit the nail on the head.... I do a lot of driving for work and see some pretty scarry stuff. Knock on wood I have yet to be involved in an accident but have had some close calls... due to other unattentive drivers... with their cell phone and coffee... it just blows be away! What I think took the cake one day was a guy reading a book doing 65 down I5 a few months back... oh and the time last year I used onstar to call a drunk driver in... she was wandering from lane to lane all over the highway... that scared the crap out of me.... and I hope they caught her. You can't keep adding safety equipment to protect the dummy behind the wheel.... I wish lawmakers would just do SOMETHING! This is a topic I'm passionate about also.... I also beleive that a drivers license is a privlage not a right... heck thats how they treat it over in Europe....
[ 15. May 2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: MM ]
Posted by CaminoLS6 (Member # 2041) on :
Here's a thought: What if we work toward eliminating rush hours? Many folks can now work from home and/or have irregular hours,so a cultural shift away from the entire working population trying to get to work all at once might really help. We all look pretty silly fighting each other every morning and afternoon just to adhere to a "traditional" workday. Otherwise, I agree with most of the above points-at least in spirit.
Finally, I add this rant: If you are travelling slower than the flow of traffic, use that strange stalk on the steering column and get your rear into the right lane!!!
Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
....must add my $.02....here's what bothers the h3ll outta me:
1) "drivers" (I use the term loosely) who have no license, no insurance, and who have never taken drivers' ed....
2)...driving "ghettomobiles" like the one I saw on Central Expwy the other day with a FRIGGIN' GARBAGE BAG duct-taped all around which COMPLETELY COVERED the driver's side window!! It DID have a small hole cut into it next to the mirror so the numbnut could see out....!!!
3) inexperienced kids that don't know what cars will do at high speed.....like my son's friend, who rolled his dad's brand new MonteCarlo SS....luckily, he was wearing his seat belt... winding road + sprinklers + speed = disaster Posted by 02SS8476 (Member # 1854) on :
I now own a 04 ZO6 and there are to to many Rice-O-Maniacs and such out there that want to race me and tailgate,cut me off....makes me wonder why i even bought it,cause it sure is taking the fun out of driving it.......whatever happened to respect others.....Guess some parents never taught that at home
Posted by TimeLord (Member # 1389) on :
Because you can come race at SANAIR with it,see you tomorrow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You DO have Onstar I hope!!!!!!! Posted by 02SS8476 (Member # 1854) on :
SERGE......Yes my Friend Tomorrow see you in the pits at 8!!!!! (if i dont get lost)NO Onstar but i DO have the Quebec Map some friends signed and gave me. Posted by cytruffle (Member # 1733) on :
>>>>>small hijack<<<<<
Welcome, 02SS8476!! Here's to your 2nd post! Good to see another Aquarian on board.... Posted by 02SS8476 (Member # 1854) on :
Thanks cytruffle.....Used to hang out on the SLP Board as 10thHawkragtop.....havent had much time till now....looking forward to posting and getting to know everyone again......
Posted by SteelHorse (Member # 1725) on :
Ken, You got my Vote. But, I will never support those redlight cameras, but that is a different rant for another time.
Scott, I'm with you too.
Posted by KenC (Member # 189) on :
thanks yall.
scott.....thanks....but ....you know i cant call ya while im doing this.....
Posted by Mike2001SS (Member # 2088) on :
Ken I would like to add what makes me made is that they make rules on how a car can be built like the one that came into effect making a new f-body that has a different design roof line and support. Well what the h**ll about my vert will I not be able to get a vert down the road. Some things are just crazy
Posted by Jim Mac (Member # 113) on :
I didn't read all of the response yet, but I want to float something that may be quite controversial. Here in NJ, we're seeing quite a bit of law enforcement being used as revenue collectors. Townships and counties actually have line items in their budgets for violations revenue. Somewhere along the line we've lost the general concept of traffic patrolmen being there for public safety. We see more police officers on the road whose sole purpose seems to be producing revenue rather than improving the safety of our roads.
For example, I take Interstate 287 to work - the length I drive happens to go through the township of Pequannock - about 1.0-1.5 miles of the highway cuts through the corner of the town. Now, there is no exit or entrance ramp that falls within the township borders, yet they have an unmarked bronze police car that sits on the highway and pulls people over for speeding. This is a 6-8 lane highway with smooth traffic flow - so I'd like someone to explain to me why that police office is there. Pequannock also happens to have an unlimited access State highway running the length of the town, with several traffic lights and a very high volume of flow. Instead of sitting on I-287, why don't they police that highway instead? Could it be because all of the out-of-town and out-of-state drivers that traverse I-287 are unlikely to contest a traffic ticket? Could it be that, since normal traffic flow is around 75-80, anyone caught speeding will pay a higher fine because of the number of miles over the limit? One thing I know for sure: it doesn't do anything for public safety. In fact, it creates more of a traffic hazard, as people invariably will hit the brakes when they see he has someone pulled over.
Oh, I forgot to mention: the Interstates in NJ are fairly well patrolled by the NJ State Troopers.
I'll add more on this later - would like to hear others thoughts.
Posted by Y2KSS1363 (Member # 1564) on :
Red light cameras -- No! Speed monitor cameras -- No!
More personal enforcement of red lights and lane changes -- Yes!!!
The biggest hazard in the freeway today is lane changes without signals.
Peeves of mine include @$$holes using the right and even left shoulders to get past heavy traffic.
Folks using the merge lanes at on ramps to get ahead a few cars.
Others using the exit ramps and going straight across to the entrance ramp to get a few cars ahead.
The problem with improving the idiots is that everything is someone else's fault.
Around here lots of drivers are "recent immigrants" who come from places without traffic enforcement. These people's bad habits rub off on nearly everyone else.
Posted by KenC (Member # 189) on :
all good points. all good input. all from some diff. perspectives. all appreciated.
we shall see. Posted by mikerc (Member # 2021) on :
And just to continue this on a little bit longer. Take a look at this fairly short column by Dave Despain(commentator on Speed Channel)
In summary his point is about accident avoidance and I've always thought my years of riding motorcycles on the street when I was about 20-30 or so has greatly contributed to my safe driving today. My 10 year old daughter says I drive slower than her Grandmother and at times I probably do. I've found that I really don't need to get there(anywhere) THAT fast on the street. And I told her this morning as she urged me to pass a classmate on the way to school because "grandma would" to tell Grandma to "bring it to the track!!!" Seriously though I let her shift gears for me in my S-10(with the 2.8V6 a real powerhouse) and try to stress to her the need to be thinking ahead of everyone around you and assuming that they either don't see you or that something on their car is going to break and you need to be ready. The difference between not doing that on a motorcycle vs. a car can be a life and death decision.
[ 20. May 2004, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: mikerc ]
Posted by biSScuit (Member # 2030) on :
There are LOTS of reasons why you see so many more accidents and deaths today. One is quite simply a greater volume of vehicles on the road. Another that has already been mentioned is cellular phones. Still another is the whole street racing scene, which continues to gain support from Hollywood as an acceptable hobby.
Ken, you mentioned that traffic has gotten significantly worse within the past 5 years. Is it coincidence that within the same time period cellular phones have become something that everyone has? I admit I have talked and driven many times. It hit me how dangerous that is when I accepted a call while driving my Escort...my 5 speed Escort. I am sure many here can attest to how difficult, or almost impossible it is to hold a phone, steer around a curve, and shift gears at the same time. I will no longer talk on the phone while in the Escort, and I try not to in the SS, but on rare occasions I still find myself making a phone call without a hands free device in the SS.
Street racing today is just out of control. I know it existed years back b/c my dad is full of stories from his old Chevelles and his Camaro, but of course he justifies it saying "the streets weren't crowded at all back when I was racing!" I attribute much of street racing to the import/domestic battle, although I know that in more urban areas there are a lot more strictly import or strictly domestic races. For example, last night on my way home I was behind a Mitsubishi of some sort (Lancer I believe, but not an Evo). It had a huge fart can, and a sticker under the plate saying "maybe next time". I got into the other lane b/c he was in traffic, and as soon as he identified my car as "an evil V8 domestic", he fell back to allow plenty of room to fly back up beside me and all but rear end the SUV in front of him. Now, what the heck did that prove?
My biggest pet peeve has already been discussed...driving too slow in the fast lane.
To wrap this up, a thought about the original topic of making safer vehicles. Just b/c safer vehicles are made doesn't mean everyone will run out and buy them. I'll still be driving my SS for quite a few years, plus the Escort that's a 1990 model. My dad's truck is a 1988 and still runs strong, so it'll be on the road quite a while longer. Sure, eventually most of the vehicles on the road will adhere to the new safety standards, but that's not a complete fix anyway. Cars today are much safer than they were in the 80's for example, yet you still see a steady increase of accidents and deaths. Like others have said, it can be attributed to the lax policies of recieving a license. I know that mine was a breeze to obtain without taking any form of drivers education (I later took it in high school for the sole purpose of reducing my insurance rates).
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