I have heard many people getting tickets for stupid little things. to Tickets that were well deserved. Given that an Law Enforcement Professional is sworn to uphold the written law, so they technically do their job...
Are many laws, used more as an excuse to collect revenue more than for safety? It seems when confronted with this issue, the enforcement side, can always defer to the safety agruement....
How many city planners, push upon the police, enforcement of fines for the reality of raising revenue
case in point... NJ raised the "having no documentation" fine as people were saying this to avoid costly speeding tickets and points on their record... have recently raised the no duocumentation fine by over 300% as they saw a loss in ticket revenues....
so what is your all's opinion
My opinion is that I feel the law enforecement do uphold their oath , but feel they are pressured by local and state officials, which use fines as a means of revenue, and force this upon the higher ranks of the law community or they get penalized, looked over for promotion, laid off, retired early (all of which are within the law ) I feel that more than just us drivers are the victims
[ 17. May 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Rhode Island Red ]
Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
Unfortunately, its a combination of both. Most police precints get to use the funds they take in to purchase new police cars, radar equipment, etc, but some police stations are able to buy nice vending machines, arcade games, and comfortable police lounges.
At a certain point, someone is going to evaluate a specific police station by the number of citations, arrests, seizures, etc, that they perform per year. Thats the way EVERY other job in this country is evaluated in terms of performance.
That results in some people decideing that if they take in more money, they can get raises, promotions, etc. Some departments put quotas on their officers as a way to compete for things with other departments (or other jobs). Unfortunately, the only way to cure this problem is to distribute all the revenue equally based on funding need. But that type of system will probably never be put into place.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
Quotas for police organizations are hardly anything new. Illinois State Police have had quotas handed down by the Governor in the mid-70s and this fact was made public as a "scare tactic" if you will. Also there was an additional order to ticket ANYTHING faster than the maximum speed limit to go along with that. Obviously, ticket income increased greatly.
I believe that the fines should be deposited in the state's hiway funds, to help maintain the highways so they truly are safer for the law-abiding drivers. I don't think it should be used to generate funds for the police to spend on raises, bonuses, etc. While that is an incentive, there are too many opportunities for breaking the law with money gained from "alleged" law breakers. Who would police THAT? While that may sound a bit socialist, it's really not, because if you don't drive, you wouldn't benefit from the hiway funds.
With some exceptions, I believe most police are fairly intelligent people that can usually determine the "stupid" laws and the laws that are truly designed for safety. They're not robots. Again, there are exceptions dealing with cops with attitudes, drowning in power-trips, etc.
Two things you can do to combat idiotic lawmakers from forgetting why they are there is to simply vote them out and more importantly, police yourself to ensure that you are following the laws, regardless of how stupid you may think they are.
Posted by 35th6spd (Member # 1243) on :
Well, I gotta put my .02 in. I can only speak for NJ, where I live, and appropriate, since a NJ law was mentioned in the original post.
First off - Ticket Quotas are not only NOT the norm in NJ, they are ILLEGAL, and officers may not be pressured to write more tickets to raise revenue.
Second - Ticket revenue in NJ is split with the State, other than city ordinances and court costs; in all but the tiniest of municipalities, ticket revenue is a miniscule drop in the budget bucket. Certain offenses in NJ have had their fines increased to offset the effects that "nice" officers have had on the decreasing issuance of insurance-point-bearing violations like speeding. These "nice" officers are doing speeders a favor, issuing non-point equipment or technical violations in lieu of a speeding ticket, as insurance point surcharges are ridiculous in NJ. Unfortunately, the lack of deterrence has led to increasing disregard of speed limits in the state, thereby putting all of us in danger. Not so "nice" for the rest of us.
Finally - Whatever it is that you do in your chosen career, I am sure you take pride in doing that thing well. Police officers, good ones, are no different. They pride themselves on enforcing the laws that the community's representatives deemed appropriate in an unbiased, fair manner; they risk their lives daily by stepping out of their patrol cars on busy highways traversed by lunatics and drunks, in the effort to restrain or remove other lunatics from the flow of law abiding, "normal" traffic. Any police officer who abuses his/her authority should be dealt with. But all too often, particularly on boards like this, which revolve around fast cars, the immature want to defer responsibility for their own actions. I for one, have no sympathy whatsoever for someone who is issued a summons for behaving in a manner that puts others at significant risk. You make your bed, you lie in it.
Having ranted, let me also say that overzealous cops, who stop people for having a license plate lamp burned out or the like, are certainly deserving IMHO of any criticism they get.
Sorry so long, I dont mean to be preachy.
Posted by Xsta Z 28 (Member # 740) on :
Unfortuantely I feel that that Tickets and some laws have become revenue makers.
Enforce speeding, traffic violations, etc.
But tickets for, no front license plate, tinted windows . . etc are IMHO pure revenue makers . .
Cop in a speed trap has two choises, beat up tan Dorf Taurus, with a missing headlight, expired tags, and a broken taillight speeds by the police car, while next to Bright Red Camaro with no front plate . . . Who does he pull over . . .
[ 17. May 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Xsta Z 28 ]
Posted by Opie (Member # 2007) on :
Unfortunately it has become a money maker for government and money is to government which heroin is for the junkie. They will lie, cheat and steal to get more. Sorry state of affairs for such a great nation. Distribution of wealth and other such societal remedies that government gets involved in and corruption, ignornace and just plain studity take over. There are many fine people in LE, but if one wishes to climb the ladder, don't rock the boat and learn to generate income... IMHO
Posted by Jim Mac (Member # 113) on :
Just reposting what I posted in Kerm's thread:
quote:Originally posted by Jim Mac: I didn't read all of the response yet, but I want to float something that may be quite controversial. Here in NJ, we're seeing quite a bit of law enforcement being used as revenue collectors. Townships and counties actually have line items in their budgets for violations revenue. Somewhere along the line we've lost the general concept of traffic patrolmen being there for public safety. We see more police officers on the road whose sole purpose seems to be producing revenue rather than improving the safety of our roads.
For example, I take Interstate 287 to work - the length I drive happens to go through the township of Pequannock - about 1.0-1.5 miles of the highway cuts through the corner of the town. Now, there is no exit or entrance ramp that falls within the township borders, yet they have an unmarked bronze police car that sits on the highway and pulls people over for speeding. This is a 6-8 lane highway with smooth traffic flow - so I'd like someone to explain to me why that police office is there. Pequannock also happens to have an unlimited access State highway running the length of the town, with several traffic lights and a very high volume of flow. Instead of sitting on I-287, why don't they police that highway instead? Could it be because all of the out-of-town and out-of-state drivers that traverse I-287 are unlikely to contest a traffic ticket? Could it be that, since normal traffic flow is around 75-80, anyone caught speeding will pay a higher fine because of the number of miles over the limit? One thing I know for sure: it doesn't do anything for public safety. In fact, it creates more of a traffic hazard, as people invariably will hit the brakes when they see he has someone pulled over.
Oh, I forgot to mention: the Interstates in NJ are fairly well patrolled by the NJ State Troopers.
Posted by HotWheelSS aka HTWLSS (Member # 117) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rhode Island Red: How many city planners, push upon the police, enforcement of fines for the reality of raising revenue
This is a very uninformed statement. I can assure you that our Planning/Land Development Division sees no money from our Sheriff's Department (and vice-versa). They are unrelated and don't have anything to do with each other. Usually, each Department and Division has their own budget and revenue sources. If you think Planning has influence on the Police, take a trip down to your local jurisdiction and ask to see the budget and revenue resources and allocation. It's all public record.
Posted by Jim Mac (Member # 113) on :
quote:Originally posted by 35th6spd: .....
Second - Ticket revenue in NJ is split with the State, other than city ordinances and court costs; in all but the tiniest of municipalities, ticket revenue is a miniscule drop in the budget bucket. Certain offenses in NJ have had their fines increased to offset the effects that "nice" officers have had on the decreasing issuance of insurance-point-bearing violations like speeding. These "nice" officers are doing speeders a favor, issuing non-point equipment or technical violations in lieu of a speeding ticket, as insurance point surcharges are ridiculous in NJ. Unfortunately, the lack of deterrence has led to increasing disregard of speed limits in the state, thereby putting all of us in danger. Not so "nice" for the rest of us.
.....
Sorry, but you are incorrect when you state that townships don't put ticket revenues as a line item in their budget.
Over the last year or two there have been several articles/reports concerning this. One that stuck in my mind is a township way down at the end of the GSP, which uses the same operating procedure that I described above on the tiny section of the GSP that runs through town borders. I remember when the Star Ledger did a whole Sunday Front Page on this, and this town was a prime example.
Also, it has been documented that local prosecutors will change a violation to a local ordinance since that garners more $$$'s for the town.
Posted by 35th6spd (Member # 1243) on :
quote:Sorry, but you are incorrect when you state that townships don't put ticket revenues as a line item in their budget.
Over the last year or two there have been several articles/reports concerning this. One that stuck in my mind is a township way down at the end of the GSP, which uses the same operating procedure that I described above on the tiny section of the GSP that runs through town borders. I remember when the Star Ledger did a whole Sunday Front Page on this, and this town was a prime example.
I didnt say towns dont include this revenue in the budget, I said that for all but the smallest towns, the revenue is insignificant. Where I work, the Township has a $22M budget; ticket revenue, including local ordinance and animal control violations, averages about $500K.
Your info on the GSP is incorrect - the GSP and NJT are private roads, policed ONLY by the NJSP under state contract;
As far as the Pequannock story, I fail to see how an UNMARKED GOLD car is determined to be a Township car.
There is no doubt that some towns use ticket writing for revenue, and try to pressure officers to write more....I have first hand/inside info on this...however, officers are not paid commission and do not generally receive promotional opportunities based on how much they write, and cannot be forced to write more.
Bottom line is, speed trap or no, if you aint speeding, you cant get writ! (I happen to agree that the petty equipment violation stuff is BS)
One more thing - if an officer has a chance to stop a piece of junk like xsta describes, vs. a shiny new Camaro - the smart officer will stop the junk heap - more likely to find unregistered, uninsured vehicles = more tix per stop Posted by Big A (Member # 1761) on :
My township does put ticket revenues as a line item in their budget. A township about 5 miles from me was recently caught for the second time taking a 35MPH speed limit down, posting a 25MPH sign and setting up a speed trap at certain times of the day to increase revenue. The state has told them that it is illegal and thanks to FOX news several people have had the tickets thrown out of court. Sound like a town of crooked police and officials. Until all unsolved rapes, robberies, and murders have been solved and those involved have been captured and prosecuted. The government has no business of having the police, or any electronic device, out ticketing anyone on an interstate for speeding, tag lights or any other BS revenue maker until it is safe to walk down every street in this country at anytime day or night. I also think that the police should not be riding around in cars all day but rather be out in the community on foot meeting the people and their children that pay their salaries.
[ 18. May 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Big A ]
Posted by twobratSS (Member # 2180) on :
Here in Texas, it is illegal for a department to give a "quota" of how many tickets are expected.
Now, when I was a full time officer (I am now a reserve/part time), did I feel pressured to give more tickets? Sure. Did they ever say, "You need to write "X" amount of tickets..." or "You need to write more tickets...", no. It was always an understood amount within the officers' ranks. We seemed to always figure out how many were desired by the administration.
I rarely TICKETED front license plates or anything non moving, but it did make for some good probably cause for getting a person with warrants or building a bigger case. But if there was nothing, I usually just gave 'em a warning and let them go.
I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's just my .02 from my perspective...
Posted by Jim Mac (Member # 113) on :
quote:Originally posted by 35th6spd: Your info on the GSP is incorrect - the GSP and NJT are private roads, policed ONLY by the NJSP under state contract;
I believe that the very end of the GSP is not a limited access highway like the rest of it, so local police can patrol it. Regardless, whether there is a contract or not, it is fact that local towships issue tickets down there.
quote:Originally posted by 35th6spd: As far as the Pequannock story, I fail to see how an UNMARKED GOLD car is determined to be a Township car. ;
Trust me - I know it's a Pequannock police car.
quote:Originally posted by 35th6spd: Bottom line is, speed trap or no, if you aint speeding, you cant get writ! (I happen to agree that the petty equipment violation stuff is BS)
The problem on our highways, sadly, is that if you go the speed limit, you are impeding traffic and constitute a traffic hazard. I'd much rather be safer going with the flow of traffic than to put myself and my family in jeopardy by doing the speed limit.
Posted by TimeLord (Member # 1389) on :
Up here it a money grab,,,,the City of Montreal doubled its next year income from parking tickets and speeding tickets. Does this mean that they know people will park illegally and speed more than this year, NO ! It means that they have to give more tickets to collect what the City WANTS from drivers to fill it's coffers. No quotas,,,,,welcome back to planet earth,where have you been???
Posted by Z28-SORR (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Originally posted by twobratSS: Here in Texas, it is illegal for a department to give a "quota" of how many tickets are expected.
Now, when I was a full time officer (I am now a reserve/part time), did I feel pressured to give more tickets? Sure. Did they ever say, "You need to write "X" amount of tickets..." or "You need to write more tickets...", no. It was always an understood amount within the officers' ranks. We seemed to always figure out how many were desired by the administration.
I rarely TICKETED front license plates or anything non moving, but it did make for some good probably cause for getting a person with warrants or building a bigger case. But if there was nothing, I usually just gave 'em a warning and let them go.
I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's just my .02 from my perspective...
I always have to laugh at his one. Every time there's a discussion about tickets some officer goes on about how it's illegal to set quota's. Well that may be but, I guarantee you if there are 10 officers on the force and 8 of them are writing 20 tickets a day and your only writing 5, your going to be called into the chiefs office and asked why.
Posted by KevinA (Member # 139) on :
Here in NY they raised the "fees" to make up the budget deficit.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
, but feel they are pressured by local and state officials, which use fines as a means of revenue, and force this upon the higher ranks of the law community or they get penalized, looked over for promotion, laid off, retired early (all of which are within the law ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) I feel that more than just us drivers are the victims ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)