Just got my Sept Popular Hot Rodding issue and one of the cover stories is about how GM killed the Camaro. Can't verify these things completely, but a lot of it was logically written.
Amazingly, those "rumors" at the other website that mysteriously dissapeared somehow rings very familiar in the writeup.
Interesting that we were just discussing this here on this board the other day. I know Scott's not going to jump in here with any ground-shaking news about it, but what I got out of the article is that the Firebird is gone, and the other was along the lines what Scott's been saying all along..."Keep the faith!" Posted by JeffY (Member # 120) on :
Magazines write stories to sell magazines, not cars.
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: Magazines write stories to sell magazines, not cars.
Unless, of course, you are talking about Motor Trend and its Car of The Year "advertising issue".
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
Sure, they sell magazines, but GM's gag order on discussing Camaros in general can only allow one to think what one will with the evidence that the F-body's rotting corpse leaves us. Forensic Files could do a story on this. I still haven't heard anyone say that their article or information gathered was untrue in whole or in part. There may be some fuzzy edges, but knowing typical corporate policies, it wouldn't surprise me if all of it were true.
The problem is, there's no one talking to confirm or rebut anything that's put in print, thus leading any logical thinking person that someone's bloodhound was on the right track.
I've always believed in putting the evidence forward and letting people decide for themselves as to what something is or isn't. The problem here is that there's no backup to either side of this "theory".
So all we're left with is opinions, and that will have to do for now. And I'm writing this on the calendar, as my predictions will be:
1) The Camaro nameplate will be back in a short time. You don't use the word "hiatus" unless it's still a viable option, although shelved for now.
2) The Camaro will be back in time for its 40th anniversary.
3)The Firebird is gone, and won't be back.
4) The legal issues with Canada is the reason why no one at GM can talk about the Camaro right now. But once those issues are dealt with or worked around, there will be buzz again of a new Camaro. Count on it.
So, unless someone can prove otherwise, I believe there's more truth in that article than what GM would like you to believe. Which, if that isn't indeed the case, why won't anyone step up to dispute it?
Regardless of the view, the overall hope is that they WILL return with a Camaro soon, and it will be deserving of such a fine nameplate, and worthy enough of a car that makes me WANT to own one. Just like the last one. Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
AMEN !!! Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
No Firebird.....WELL....as a Pontiac Firebird owner, I am going to hold out for the Solstice then.
NOT!!!!
Posted by BadWS6 (Member # 1799) on :
No Bird
Boo Hissssssssss Posted by mikerc (Member # 2021) on :
At this point I'd be almost afraid to hope for the Firebird to come back. Don't misunderstand, I wish our Camaro cousins the absolute best and I hope the nameplate comes back and rips up the road. I've owned one before, might own one again... but I keep thinking back to that Stephen King book Pet Sematary "Sometimes dead is better" Posted by Opie (Member # 2007) on :
Food for thought, I could be wrong but didn't GM offer a Last of the Breed badging for the Firebirds but not for the Camaro? And does that mean anything?
Posted by vyto2 (Member # 2265) on :
Sucks to not have them come back as the twins. These cars started out side by side, they should continue that way... I always thought the birds had a touch more style than the camaros. Not that the camaros weren't hot to start with. Posted by chrisL (Member # 97) on :
It makes no sense at all for Pontiac to do a GTO and a Firebird.
Pontiac got the GTO. Chevy got squat when the fcar died.
Perhaps Chevy will get a 2+2 or 5 seater coupe in the future. Time will tell... and what is that slogan being used by someone around here... "keep the faith"
Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by chrisL: It makes no sense at all for Pontiac to do a GTO and a Firebird.
Pontiac got the GTO. Chevy got squat when the fcar died.
Perhaps Chevy will get a 2+2 or 5 seater coupe in the future. Time will tell... and what is that slogan being used by someone around here... "keep the faith"
Isn't that becuase Chevy already has the Corvette as a halo car? When the F-car died Pontiac was really left with no halo car at all.
Posted by chrisL (Member # 97) on :
I would think that had alot to do with it, absolutely.
Posted by Fbodfather (Member # 1119) on :
the article was irresponsible and it did no one any favors....including the authors.
Posted by el ess1 (Member # 1544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fbodfather: the article was irresponsible and it did no one any favors....including the authors.
Scott, are we to understand from your answer that PHR is just plain wrong or were they prying the lid off of something they have no business in? Or, you officially cannot comment? Not trying to beat the dead horse too much, but these are the type of articles you'll be seeing until GM opens their mouths to set the record straight.
Hope you understand that we're not trying to ruffle feathers here with GM or our Canadian friends, it's just that we're trying to understand the whole story, and if GM can't or won't say anything, there's got to be a reason for the sealed lips. The end result, like I've stated before, is that we want every possibility and hope on hope (like the Cubs or Red Sox winning a World Series) that there will be a 5th Gen Camaro. "Keep the faith", while promising, only works for so long. We're all waiting for those three little confirmation words..."Camaro is back!" Please GM, say that someday soon, ok? And then teach the marketing group what a Camaro is so they don't forget about it.
Posted by vyto2 (Member # 2265) on :
Yeah, chevy has the vette and now will maybe come back with the camaro. Pontiac can't have a GTO and a firebird at the same time??? Why not... Posted by Bill Mason (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by vyto2: Yeah, chevy has the vette and now will maybe come back with the camaro. Pontiac can't have a GTO and a firebird at the same time??? Why not...
I would think (and this is pure conjecture on my part) that Pontiac will be going in a slightly different direction. IMHO, the GTO snd Solstice are early indications of this direction. I would characterize this direction as alternative, affordable performance oriented vehicles that are more attractive and affordable to the younger crowd.
Me simply thinking out loud here.....no basis in fact.
Posted by chrisL (Member # 97) on :
quote:Originally posted by vyto2: Pontiac can't have a GTO and a firebird at the same time??? Why not...
Wouldnt be cost effective to have two offerings under the same brand targeted at similar demographics.
Posted by xero (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by chrisL:
quote:Originally posted by vyto2: Pontiac can't have a GTO and a firebird at the same time??? Why not...
Wouldnt be cost effective to have two offerings under the same brand targeted at similar demographics.
well thats easy then, scrap the Cavalier, err GTO, and bring back the Bird Posted by Doug Harden (Member # 1796) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fbodfather: the article was irresponsible and it did no one any favors....including the authors.
I hope no-one "suffers" because of this article...... Posted by FireChicken (Member # 2067) on :
quote:Originally posted by chrisL:
quote:Originally posted by vyto2: Pontiac can't have a GTO and a firebird at the same time??? Why not...
Wouldnt be cost effective to have two offerings under the same brand targeted at similar demographics.
Well, thats because dissimlar models of a car are offered to people with varying price ranges.
For example, a firebird and camaro are essentially identical (despite semantic differences). However, one is much more expensive than the other. They are marketed at different price ranges.
Now, the GTO does not, in any way, fit th same market as a camaro. I do see a realistic potential for a firebird AND a GTO,a nd I wll explain it here.
Camaro: Low cost, emphasis on performance, intended to compete with mustangs.
GTO: Higher cost, but more leg room. Intended to be a sedan type car that has room, but also good, rwd performance. Sort of a lower cost Cadillac CTS, if you will. May also be a lower-cost alternative to Mseries vehicles.
Firebird: A vehicle that is higher than that of a corvette, but emphasizes styling and performance. What this vehicle lacks in room and functionality compared to the GTO, it makes up for with a sleeker look than the camaro, and advanced performance options.
Essentially, this is the exact same role the Firebird has played in recent years. You realize that the purpose of having a pontiac equivalent of a camaro simply allows the wealthier segment of the same target market an option to buy. There are many people who will buy a firebird if given the option. Me, for example. I bought a pontiac over a chevy because i liked the sleeker, more aerodynamic styling much more than i liked th camaro, and I had the money to pay for it.
Secondly, there is not a lot of work required to turn a camaro into a firebird. The two fcars are very similar to one anohter, much more so than say, a camaro and a GTO.
My point is, where the GTO was a family-type car given extra performance, ideal for a couple with a kid who doesnt want an SUV or minivan, but still wants performance, the firebird is a true sports car... almost a middle-class vette.
If GM were to build a camaro and a GTO, you have to remember that the people who buy a camaro might not be interested in a GTO because of styling and performance (the GTO would weigh much more than any camaro), and so you have a new market segment.
And since the transfer from a camaro to a firebird is relatively simple, i think it could be done in a fashion that is relatively inexpensive. And take advantage of a niche market, just as the firebirds did in generations past.
Posted by mikerc (Member # 2021) on :
I think part of the problem is that the market just isn't what it once was. Back in the day, GM could afford to have divisions cannibalize sales from one another because there were few slices of the pie. Now with all the worldwide competition the pie is sliced more thinly. I know the whole pie is bigger, but honestly, I don't see indications that GM is making the kind of inroads into foreign markets that those manufacturers have made into the US market. So we're left with more choices overall, but fewer choices from our domestic manufacturers. Unfortunate, IMHO.
I remember a great article I read a while back on http://www.autoextremist.com about how GM should get in on F1 because F1 is all about showcasing your technology and the Euro manufacturers are dying to get a race into China. That's the next big area, big country, lots of area, lots of people, perfect for selling lots of cars if we can ever drag them into the 21st(or even 20th) century. I keep hearing that Pontiac is heading toward a tack that would take on the higher-end performance/luxury sedan type market. I wish them well.
Hey Scott, you should get some GM folks on Wind Tunnel on SpeedTV. Edsel Ford II is going to be on next week. Herb Fishel was on once last year, it was a fascinating interview.
Posted by Sizzle (Member # 503) on :
I will have to pick this up and check it out. In my opinion, we will get the Camaro back. It will be made on a shared platform like most GM cars now. It will also be made someplace that GM can have it made much cheaper then it cost them in Canada.
I think GM is letting the 'bird die because a) they are sticking with the GTO, and b) it did not sell enough cars. They obviously killed the fbody because of low sales, but the 'bird's sales were much lower than the Camaro's.
Chevy does in a lower costing sports car though. The Corvette and the SSR are out of the price range of most of your younger buyers in my opinion, then throw in insurance, it adds up really fast. I wonder how much the C6 will be, meaning, will it be more then the MSRP on the C5? I can't see it being less.
Interesting theory FC, but GM will NEVER have a car above the Corvette. At least a sports car. That would almost be unAmerican.
Posted by mikerc (Member # 2021) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sizzle: [snip] Interesting theory FC, but GM will NEVER have a car above the Corvette. At least a sports car. That would almost be unAmerican.
As most of the Pontiac faithful probably know, the original Firebird concept(championed by John DeLorean) was a 2-seater based on the A-body platform (Lemans/Tempest) which I think had independent rear suspension. It was killed and John was forced to adapt the Camaro to Pontiac's stable due to perceived pressure the Banshee based car might bring to the Vette.
Read the same article. We keep hearing "Keep the faith",which to me means that something is on the horizon that will shock the heck out of mustang owners and us. Maybe it will be a Camaro,or possible a Chevelle. Most likely RWD V-8 performance. I trust Scott and what he says.
Posted by JeffY (Member # 120) on :
"I wonder how much the C6 will be, meaning, will it be more then the MSRP on the C5? I can't see it being less."
C6 is less base price than C5.
Posted by jimb0 (Member # 176) on :
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: "I wonder how much the C6 will be, meaning, will it be more then the MSRP on the C5? I can't see it being less."
C6 is less base price than C5.
...that's true, but the "must have" options sure add up quickly... Posted by ss_rs_z (Member # 1888) on :
From what I read a few weeks ago in one of Detroits Newspapers the C6 is suppose to be a few hundred dollars less than the C5. I can't remember what the base price was projected to be but I remember reading it.
As for the GTO/Firebird equation, the GTO was killed off in the early - mid 70's because of poor sales while the Firebird and Camaro nameplates continued decently. As of recent sales of I believe 3765 GTO's I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is dropped again in the future. The sales figures are I believe 1/6 of what GM was hoping for of 18,000 units.
As strongly as I believe that the Camaro is coming back I wouldn't doubt if the Firebird follows shortly after.
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