1) Base model: called just Camaro, V-6 only
--------------------------------
2)RS: Base model V-8(if a base model is needed and can be done).
----------------------------------
3)SS (Super Sport): (STANDARD equipment)

All power/comfort/convenience options currently available on a 4th gen including convertible(with power top), T-Tops, leather, automatic, etc.

Fill in debossed frt & rear "Camaro" lettering in a contrasting color to other paint.

SS logo in headrest embroidered.

SS emblems on front and rear, and both sides.

White face gauges.

special "LED" taillights(as scott s. mentioned)

special hood (similar to 98 and newer SS)

special rear spoiler, different from base and Z-28

special 1 piece front and rear fascias (NOT extentions)(different from base and Z-28)

somewhat de-tuned vette/Z-28 engine, or the LS-1 in current form.

Better seats with decent side support and lumbar support.(not the same as Z-28).

engine/valve train covers

seat belts that LOCK into place to hold you in.

available in ALL Camaro colors (some extra cost if needed)

Bring back the first generation color palette.
-------------------------------------
SS extra cost OPTIONS:

GPS unit built in.

power antenna

heated seats (I know Art S will like that one!!)

upgraded shifter

electric rear hatch pull-down

pedals you can heel-toe with

electronically adjustable suspension(ride control)

Heavy duty clutch

Heavy duty rear diff.

Chrome wheels

inside rear-view mirror w/vanity lights, external temp and compass display.
--------------------------------------------
Z-28 (A Z06 style car, the purists car, a showroom stock racer).

STANDARD equipment:

17" or 18" x 9.5" frt, 11" rear aluminum wheels (chrome not available)

special hood (ala cowl induction style) even if its non-functional.

special rear spoiler(different from Base & SS)

Z-28 logo in headrests(embroidered).

Checkered flag pattern in gauge cluster (on face).

high durometer bushings in EVERYTHING.

Heavy duty suspension (above SS level) with springs, shocks, swaybars.

Base model taillights.(or maybe use the japanese export style, etc if different).

fill in front and rear debossed "Camaro" lettering in contrasting color to paint.

6 speed manual trans ONLY.

High Horsepower LS-6/or newer gen high perf engine (same as Vette)

power windows, locks, air conditioning, tilt, power seat, antilock brakes, traction control, cd player (all standard).

available in all colors(some extra cost if needed). available in the first gen color palette.

Unique Z-28 only front and rear 1 piece (not extentions) fascias (different from base & SS)

upgraded shifter.

Z-28 style stripes (a must have)

engine/ valvetrain covers (stating Camaro Z-28??) (exta cost if needed).

Heavy duty clutch assy.

Heavy duty 3rd member (12 bolt??), (option if needed).

Driveshaft loop.

Pedals you can heel-toe with.

Seat belts that LOCK into place to hold you in.

Cold air induction kit with K&N or similar filter.

High flow, deep tone exhaust system w/dual tips.

No interior sound deadeners(except carpet) to make it lighter.

(Note: please do NOT change the trans ratios such as the Z06, I feel the standard ratios are better for the road course)
********************************
Z-28 OPTIONS:
(NO T-tops, convertible, automatic, leather, etc.

Road race/sticky tires (like the supercar tire or better).

"race" seats w/tons of side bolstering (adjustable, of course). Like the '94 Vette seats.

6 way power seat bottom.

Carbon metallic brake pads (Nascar uses them, why can't we, from Performance Friction).

Cross-drilled or dimpled and slotted rotors.

active handling.

Independent rear suspension (I can dream, can't I?).

4 point rollbar.

4 point seat belt harness kit (if optional roll bar is purchased).

Free flowing shorty headers (gotta keep those cats working!!).

3.73 rear gears (make 6th more overdrive if needed).

(dreaming here) supercharger.

******************************
or maybe offer some of these Z-28 parts over the counter, with a warranty. Ford does.
**********************************

P.S. And forget about the focus groups........they thought the 98 and newer grille was nice, and they thought New Coke was a good idea too!!

P.P.S. And you can still call it the F-body for us die hards, no matter what platform it's on.
*********************************
Thanks for reading this. Hope it helps a little.

]

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Steve da Wrench ]

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Steve da Wrench ]

To actually have a marketable product, you need to define what is in that base model V6 that will make it sell in large numbers. They need to sell to the young, to more women and most important to rental car agencies. Interior details, reliability etc. Things that we know and care about are things that the average car buyer has no idea about. What things do the average buyer care about and how can we accomadote them and entice them to buy. We can have our optioned special versions that we can all talk about but the general public needs a car that fits what they need as well.

Also, you seem to describe what we would like to have had in a 4th gen car not so much a newly designed fifth gen. Why not really go out on a limb and describe what a whole new car could be, not an evolution of existing design. Keep in mind there are lots of federal regulations to consider. Safety, economic etc.

For instance, I would start with the interior. For a car that is a big as the 4th gen Camaro is, the interior is small. There is a lot of room in the dash alone. That thing is enormous. Also, how it is engineered for people to work on. How much does it cost people or a Chevy dealer to work on the 4th gen. It took me a couple of hours to change plugs!! That should be a ten minute job. Imagine the advertising effects that could be had to tell people how much cheaper it would be to own this car over 5 years than brand-x.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joey Red:
Where's the Bat holder, console cannoli cooler and Oreo shelf? Oh wait, that's only available in the Joey Red Edition. You can only order it in Guinea Tomato Red too. Fahgetaboutit!!!

---

Sorry Joey, forgot the bat holder. What is cannoli? The Oreo shelf wouldn't work though, I was thinking more along the lines of a trailer hitch so you can tow your Oreo looking trailer behind you, so you never run out of 'em. I will have a word with Scott about the Joey Red addition too, while I am at it. Gotta love ya, Joey!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Steve da Wrench ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve da Wrench:
Hey Dan!

I was just listing the high end stuff wanted, assuming the low end stuff would already be done. I guess you are right though, I will work on coming up with a list for the BASIC car as well. Your points are very valid. Now go take your geritol...............umm, I mean nap!......and I will talk at you later!

---

Hey Steve, I understand!! I think getting a lsit of what want in a car is a great idea. In my business (when I was working ) we had what we called users groups or focus groups. We would take our biggest and best customers and host them to free weekends in places like Boston. We would get their ideas on our strengths and weaknesses. We would take their ideas verrrrryyyy seriously. In fact, much of our future development would be based on these users groups. What you have started with that thread is that same idea!! It is a great idea. We are best qualified to help GM to decide what should be in the models that we will buy. We can give good, honest and reliable information to what we would buy!! Good job.

quote:

---

Originally posted by HTWLSS:
Note to self: Find a Cannoli recipe.

---

The base Camaro vehicle details:

V-6 standard (for good mileage and to meet the CAFE standards.(optional V-8 model)
Automatic standard equipment(manual available)
Larger interior (thinner doors??), smaller dash, etc.
Better visibility out the windows (maybe add 1/4 windows again)
Comfortable seats with lumbar support.
T-tops or convertible top available(power top).
Analog gauges (NO digital, unless HUD)
More trunk space
Run flat tires (like corvette) and/or no spare tire to improve interior storage room.
Fat bottom on rear seat bottoms. big butts (anything larger than a kid) couldn't fit in the backof a 3rd or 4th gen. No legroom is expected, its not a not a 4dr after all. But enough room to sit would be nice, and maybe not so low in the backseat.
Fold down back seat (maybe even a split one like a 3rd gen).
Console with cupholders front and back.
Power outlet plug in rear of console along with one in the front of the console or dash.
More footroom on the passenger side between the floor and the heater box (I wear a 9 1/2 shoe and it won't fit in a 4th gen)
More legroom in the front area.
Flatten out the rear hatch area for better cargo storage.
Keep the hatchback design (unless 1/4 windows necessitate doing a trunk lid.
Entry/egress on 4th gen was not a complaint of mine, so I say leave it as it is. But I know generic public buyers would like it different, so I guess it should be addressed to make it easier.

Actually make and use ads on TV, etc. Get a new ad company, like the one Dodge uses........they have great ads. Go look at the ad somebody suggested on Z-28.com and use something like that, or better.

I will add more as I think of them.

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Steve da Wrench ]

- Flatten out the passenger side floor pan.

- Level out the rear hatch area to make the space more useful.

- Keep the hatchback (no trunk like the Mustang).

- Higher quality fit & finish inside & out (especially inside).

- Optional 4 piston calipers w/ 13" rotors in front and 2 piston calipers in the rear on Z28, maybe on SS as well (guess the Vette better get that next year so it at least has a chance of making it to the Camaro ).

So here’s the list…..as I (we) see it….

1) Base model: called just Camaro, V-6 only:

· All power/comfort/convenience options currently available on a 4th gen. including convertible (with power top), T-Tops, leather, automatic, etc.

--------------------------------
2) RS (Rally Sport): Base model V-8 (if a base model is needed and can be done economically):

· Gen IV engine in 4.6L (283 cu. in.) displacement.
· All power/comfort/convenience options currently available on a 4th gen. including convertible (with power top), T-Tops, leather, automatic, etc.

----------------------------------
3) SS (Super Sport) - STANDARD equipment:

· All power/comfort/convenience options currently available on a 4th gen. including convertible (with power top), T-Tops, leather, automatic, etc.
· Fill in debossed front & rear "Camaro" lettering in a contrasting color to other paint.
· Special "LED" taillights (as Scott S. mentioned)
· Ram Air hood (similar to 98+ SS)
· Special rear spoiler, different from base and Z-28
· Special 1 piece front and rear fascias (NOT extensions) different from base and Z-28
· Gen IV engine in 5.7L displacement.
· Engine/valve train covers
· Independent rear suspension
· Better seats with decent side support and lumbar support.(not the same as Z-28).
· Pedals you can heel-toe with
· Mid-range stereo.
· Seat belts that LOCK into place to hold you in.
· Available in ALL Camaro colors (some extra cost if needed) Bring back the first generation color palette.

-------------------------------------
3a) SS - OPTIONS:
· GPS unit built in.
· Power antenna.
· High-end stereo.
· Heated seats
· Upgraded shifter.
· Specific instrumentation, ala the Z06
· Electric rear hatch pull-down
· Electronically adjustable suspension (ride control)
· Active handling.
· Heavy-duty clutch
· Heavy-duty rear diff.
· Chrome wheels
· Inside rear-view mirror w/vanity lights, external temp and compass display.

--------------------------------------------

4) Z-28 (A Z06 style car, the purist’s car, a showroom stock racer…like it started life as!). 100 – 150# minimum, lighter than other models. No T-tops available. If it doesn’t make it faster or a better performing car….or save a few $$, then LEAVE IT OFF. We don’t mind hearing the exhaust or riding a little stiffer…: STANDARD equipment:

· 17" x 9.5" front, 18" x 10" rear aluminum, light-weight wheels (chrome not available)
· Special hood (ala cowl induction style) even if it’s non-functional.
· Special rear spoiler (different from Base & SS)
· High durometer bushings through-out.
· Heavy-duty suspension with springs, adjustable shocks, swaybars…ala the 1LE.
· Independent rear suspension.
· Base model taillights. (or use the export style, etc if different).
· 6 speed manual trans ONLY.
· Gen IV engine in 5.7L displacement. Make it within 5 hp of the Vette.
· Cold air induction kit with high-flowing air filter.
· High flow, deep tone exhaust system w/dual tips.
· Specific instrumentation, ala the Z06.
· Cloth ONLY seating, but GOOD seats in a non-powered, but adjustable frame.
· Power windows, locks, air conditioning, tilt, antilock brakes, traction control, all standard (ONLY if no cost savings w/o them).
· Available in all colors.
· Unique Z-28 only front and rear 1 piece (not extensions) fascias (different from base & SS)
· Upgraded shifter.
· Z-28 style stripes (optional)
· Heavy-duty clutch assy.
· Heavy-duty 3rd member.
· Pedals you can heel-toe with.
· Seat belts that LOCK into place to hold you in.
· Limited sound deadeners (except carpet) to make it lighter.

--------------------------------
4a) Z-28 - OPTIONS:

· Higher performance tires.
· 18” wheels all around.
· Titanium Exhaust…or at least a light weight version…chambered?
· ‘Race’ style seats w/ heavy side, adjustable bolstering and provisions (openings in seat back and bottom) for 5 point harnesses.
· Carbon metallic brake pads.
· Cross-drilled or dimpled and slotted rotors….ala BAER’s Eradispeed.
· Active handling.
· 3.73 or higher rear gear ratios.
· Radio / heater delete…(OK, I was gonna’ ask for headers (in the trunk) and a cross-ram, but I digress)

_______________________________________________

I'm going to try and compose this as a poll and post it on various websites and hopefully submit the results an an unsolicited submission to Scott's team.....can't hurt!

Here's a list of the wes sites I've posted this on....including this one.

FYI:

SLP
http://www.hoodscoop.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=015486

CamaroZ28.com
http://web.camaross.com/bb/Forum5/HTML/001219.html

MFBA.org
http://ubb.mfba.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=11&t=009397

LS1Tech.com
http://www.ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=001218

GMInsidernews.com
http://www.humpday.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=15

F-Body.com
http://www.f-body.com/forum.cgi?MESSAGE=7255

SSOA
http://www.chirpthird.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=010088

CICC
http://www.worldwidecamaro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=27&t=000565

WCA
http://www.worldwidecamaro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=000321

Z28 Owners Assoc.
http://www.z28owners.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000264

Fairly interesting stuff....some expected, some very well thought out.....some totally un-doable.....

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Doug Harden, Pres CICC ]

I'll take on of those Z28's. It would be perfect to go with my Z06!!

I like your last one in the base model a lot Steve. That one would have made the 4th gens a very successful product had it existed! (I'm talking about marketing).

Great stuff, one of the best threads ever started here. I knew we got you on the board for a reason!

quote:

---

Originally posted by alfredf00_1673:
Aren't you flip-flopped?? I the 60's the Z28 was the pony car while the SS was the BEAST. The Z28 was made for the IROC series while the SS was the seat of the pants straight line Muscle Car!
Looks like the options for the Z28 version are the ones that should be the SS..

---

The original '67 Z/28 was built specifically so that GM could go Trans AM series racing.....they didn't even name it. The RPO became the name in '68 and in the early '70's when emmissions, insurance and gas worries killed the big block, GM stayed with the Z/28 moniker due to it's popularity and Camaro specific name.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alfredf00_1673:
Aren't you flip-flopped?? I the 60's the Z28 was the pony car while the SS was the BEAST. The Z28 was made for the IROC series while the SS was the seat of the pants straight line Muscle Car!
Looks like the options for the Z28 version are the ones that should be the SS..

---

All Camaro's are called pony cars, along with mustang, javelin, cuda, etc. The Iroc name came from using the car in the Iroc series, then adopting the name (it was still a Z-28, as it was called the IROC-Z [-28]). The Z-28 was an option package strictly designed for road racing. Not all the options were available on the Z-28, because it WAS a race car, just like the Z-06 was in '63 and again now with the new ones. The SS was an engine performance only package (either 350cid or 396cid), with slight trim changes, etc). All options were available on the SS, unlike on the Z-28.

Lets be honest, when your traveling and you see a fourth gen you get excited and your realize its just a base coupe and you say to your self, "Oh its just a six cylinder" Lets see a show of hands..... I'll admit I've said it myself and I own a V6 car! But as an example of what I drive, an RS with an SS hood with a big CAMARO banner on the windshield plus a butt load of Zaino. Its different, people look, and like the car. Some think its an SS, its not, I still have the RS badges on it with an additonal 3800 bading on the rear. The point I am trying to make is make the V6 car different in this aspect, limit the perfomance options as previously mention, but boost the engine the supercharge V6. Now you have given a better identity to the car because its now a "Supercharged RS". Marketablity to the entry level Camaro buyer, moderate performance, lower insurance rates, etc. As a reminder the V6 coupe is +50% of the market. I bought for style not speed.

I know its a Z28 / SS world out there, yes I have V8 envy. But for those who know me, I can't be trusted with an SS or Z28 I think this opens up the market a little more, first we got to get the 5th Gen car produced, period.

When its time, I'll write the commercials.

Just my .02, uhh.. wait make that $1.25

quote:

---

Originally posted by alfredf00_1673:
Yeah! But if they were to do this we would have to switch from the SSOA to the Z28OA! Think of all the paperwork.. Teri might resign..

---

I'm more diverse than that. I drive a '90 5.7 IROC-Z as a daily driver, and my '67 is a 6-cylinder car! I can handle the 4th Gen SS's still.

More combinations than this would drive up the price
of the car thus reducing its marketability.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve_Winters:
I like the suggestions for lots of engine,
transmission and rear end options, but the reality
is that each one of those combinations must be
submitted for EPA smog and fuel economy (CAFE)
testing. These tests are not cheap. In order to
keep the cost down I'd guess there will be only
two engines, three transmissions, and three rear
end ratios available. V6 5 speed, 3.23 ratio,
V6 auto, 2.76 ratio, V8 6 speed 3.42 ratio, and
V8 auto 2.76 and 3.23 ratios, just like this year.

More combinations than this would drive up the price
of the car thus reducing its marketability.

Just my $0.02.

---