quote:Originally posted by TimeLord: Some would say great photo op or publicity stunt!!!
May be true but I think it shows his heart is in the right place and can you think maybe how hard it was for him to get his security people to go along with this to a air-field a plane was hit just this past week by ground fire.
-------------------- Willard (Mike) Scott Worldwide Camaro Club North Carolina state Rep. 2001 SS convertible with all SLP opts. Sunset Orange Neutral top Neutral leather http://community.webshots.com/user/wmss Posts: 737 | From: Siler City N.C. | Registered: Sep 2003
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Not dizzing the move[one of his better moves]it puts him into the action and makes him a lot more credible[a la Ronald Reagan] and closer to the troops !!!!!!!
-------------------- 94 Z28/UltraZ Hood & Box/2 1/2 Drop/52mmTB & Bypass/160 Stat/Pulley/ Catback & pipe/Shifter/Kirkey seats/5 point belts/WW Wing/Ford9"-4.11- Detroit locker-Strange axles/ZEKE'S Heads & LT4 HC/Stainless Headers & Y/1LE Panhard/BMR SFCs-STB-Relo Brackets-Tunnel Brace-Adj Tq arm-adj Sway bar-Adj LCAs/ Line lock & LT4 PP & clutch/Monster tach & light/T REX F Pump/T shifter grip/DS Loop/A Great Friend MIKE !!24/08/03=12.487@113.486/1.785 60ft. 19/10/03=12.477@113.030 /1.807 60ft. 15/05/04=12.438@112.269/1.767 60ft www.timelord3.com www.stealthperf.com www.timelord3.com Posts: 558 | From: Loretteville,Mars | Registered: Feb 2002
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FireChicken
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quote:Originally posted by TimeLord: Not dizzing the move[one of his better moves]it puts him into the action and makes him a lot more credible[a la Ronald Reagan] and closer to the troops !!!!!!!
You know, sometimes I wonder if you are the only canadian who doesnt have his head up his butt. Kudos to you, TL, for being on the ball!
Posts: 686 | From: Texas: Hullabaloo, Caneck! Caneck! | Registered: Aug 2003
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Sorry but I disagree with most staements here. Just my .02
I am not a Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. I am middle of the road but I feel we need more done here with our people. Too much is given to the Rich, The Middle Class that runs the country is shrinking everyday, the Poor even poorer. Job loses are staggering. Who is going to buy the products when the Middle Class dies out? Then the Rich will cry and cry. We cannot police the world. Keep an eye on it yes and stand up to evil yes. But sticking our nose where it doesn't belong NO !!! This is why there is so much resentment towards the U.S. in the first place.
The Middle East has been in turmoil since the beginning of the ages and the only ones that will solve it will be them and God not anyone else.
I know most of you will disagree and tell me to stick my head in my a$$ but we need to help each other right here at home.
Hate me if you must but please look out for each other.
Posts: 2841 | From: Westland, MI | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
The trip accomplished what it was intended to do. Show the troops that he supports them. If the commander and Chief is to be a great leader he must have the backing of his military. It is said that a leader with no followers is just a man out for a walk.
Posts: 1201 | From: Medina,Ohio | Registered: Feb 2000
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I'm glad that he went there for the troops. Its too bad that the troops are there in the first place, only because the leader of that country tried to kill George's daddy. There are no WMD, no proof anything existed;there were no links to 9/11-more links to our buddies the Saudias but we wouldn't dream of geeting rid of them. Now, Iraq is full of terrorists-thanks to us inviting them in. Viet Nam all over again. Either you plan to win or you don't go in. Now, $87B to rebuild what didn't need to be destroyed. Why didn't we just hire the Israelis to assinate Saddam ( who has managed to elude us, along with Ossama)-would've cost a lot less lives and money. I truly feel sorry for all of the families that have lost loved ones in this campaign. My son had to go to a funeral for one of his Marine buddies that was killed in the Gaza Strip a few weeks ago, so I do know what its like.
Posts: 1163 | From: Rochester Hills, Mi | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: I'm glad that he went there for the troops. Its too bad that the troops are there in the first place, only because the leader of that country tried to kill George's daddy. There are no WMD, no proof anything existed;
No offense JeffY but
I guess you forgot the 17 UN resolutions that Sadam thumbed his nose at? Maybe you forget the the ENTIRE WORLD believed he had WMD and if he dosent its only because he went to great lengths to fool everyone. He was a menace to the region and hence the world and his country is better off without him. Just because Clinton spent 8 years trying to get free hummers and not "taking care of business" you shouldnt blame GW for doing what needed to be done long ago.
And as sad as it is to loose troops it is ultimatly what they are trained for.. to be used. The world is a different place now and we can either wait for our enemies to come to us or we can take the fight to them on OUR terms.
Hindsight is 20/20 but maybe a democratic IRAQ can be a model to the other countries in the region (what they are afraid of im sure)..
-------------------- Had a blingin' 2000 SS
Now I have a "soon to be" blingin' LS1 powered 1969 SS
posted
I guess you forgot the 17 UN resolutions that Sadam thumbed his nose at?
Hindsight is 20/20 but maybe a democratic IRAQ can be a model to the other countries in the region (what they are afraid of im sure).. [/QB][/QUOTE]
One= Ignored UN resolutions is a very bad arguement,Isreal has ignored 100s[nothing against Isreal,but if you hold one country to a standard,ALL must comply to it]
Two= An Islamic democratically elected goverment will not fly with the US goals,what you want is a non religious non secular goverment in power in an Arab country. HELLO!!!! get real.
Iraq will never become a bastion of Democracy like your best friends the Saudies[how come most of the 9/11 actors were Saudi??? HUMMMMMMMM????],it will go on being divided and secular and very bloody.
Quite unfortunate.
-------------------- 94 Z28/UltraZ Hood & Box/2 1/2 Drop/52mmTB & Bypass/160 Stat/Pulley/ Catback & pipe/Shifter/Kirkey seats/5 point belts/WW Wing/Ford9"-4.11- Detroit locker-Strange axles/ZEKE'S Heads & LT4 HC/Stainless Headers & Y/1LE Panhard/BMR SFCs-STB-Relo Brackets-Tunnel Brace-Adj Tq arm-adj Sway bar-Adj LCAs/ Line lock & LT4 PP & clutch/Monster tach & light/T REX F Pump/T shifter grip/DS Loop/A Great Friend MIKE !!24/08/03=12.487@113.486/1.785 60ft. 19/10/03=12.477@113.030 /1.807 60ft. 15/05/04=12.438@112.269/1.767 60ft www.timelord3.com www.stealthperf.com www.timelord3.com Posts: 558 | From: Loretteville,Mars | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Wow! I thought this was a Camaro discussion site? I am sick of all the "NFB". postings here. Take the political debate somewhere else. This forum has gone off the deep end and isn't even worth checking for F-Body info anymore.
My .02.
Posts: 94 | From: Portland, Oregon USA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by SS Derek: Wow! I thought this was a Camaro discussion site? I am sick of all the "NFB". postings here. Take the political debate somewhere else. This forum has gone off the deep end and isn't even worth checking for F-Body info anymore.
My .02.
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I don't see any rule stating that political disucssion can't be on this board.
Like many have said many times before, if you don't like the post, don't read it.
Just my $.02US/$.03CN
[ 28. November 2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Scott Chab ]
Posts: 1762 | From: Wilmington, DE, USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TimeLord: I guess you forgot the 17 UN resolutions that Sadam thumbed his nose at?
Hindsight is 20/20 but maybe a democratic IRAQ can be a model to the other countries in the region (what they are afraid of im sure)..
One= Ignored UN resolutions is a very bad arguement,Isreal has ignored 100s[nothing against Isreal,but if you hold one country to a standard,ALL must comply to it]
Two= An Islamic democratically elected goverment will not fly with the US goals,what you want is a non religious non secular goverment in power in an Arab country. HELLO!!!! get real.
Iraq will never become a bastion of Democracy like your best friends the Saudies[how come most of the 9/11 actors were Saudi??? HUMMMMMMMM????],it will go on being divided and secular and very bloody.
Quite unfortunate. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Isreal didnt invade another county (thus destabalizing the worlds oil supply) and force a war to kick them out. To be honest this shouldnt even be called a new war but more of resumption of hostilities since Sadam did not abide by the terms of his surrender. Besides the UN resolutions that IRAQ violated specificly called for "consequences" the Isreali argument is a hollow one and is apples to oranges when being compared to IRAQ.
Who said the Saudis were my best friend? I dont trust them at all BUT they are the lesser of two evils (or more).. compared to Syria and Iran they quite friendly. Oh and a secular county ruled properly can still exist peacefully.. An Iraq that is ruled by religious based muslim government will still have internal issues but if the leaders are not hell bent to cause trouble in the region then everyone wins.
I suppose we could be like other countries and just stick our heads in the sand and hope it all turns out ok.. Maybe you need to "get real" and realize that the ONLY reason France, Russia and Germany opposed the action is because they were all in bed with Sadam and stood to loose a lot of $$ if he was gone.
Friendly discussion.. right?
-------------------- Had a blingin' 2000 SS
Now I have a "soon to be" blingin' LS1 powered 1969 SS
posted
Politics. World leaders. Fallen dictators. All one can do is view it from their own perspective, while keeping in mind that others view things from their perspective. If they don't coincide, so what?
Ask the Iraqi people if GW's visit did them good? From their perspective, probably not. But to the troops? You can bet on that. George's fly by night, secret visit was cool in one sense, but also underscored, IMO, the level of danger that still exists in Iraq. When the President has to sneak in and out of the country unannounced, what does that tell you? He couldn't announce his plans for this trip in advance. You'd think he was going to Detroit...
It pains me to see some of the grumblings from the other major party say there was political motives, etc., from a simple visit to the troops. Truth to the core, if known, would be that we might not even be in this mess had the preceding president been more vigilant in his pursuit of Osama and other terrorist organizations and movements. Too late to point the finger now, Ted K. and friends.
As far as I'm concerned, I think it was a brave and gutsy thing GW did. He literally put his life on the line to serve turkey to our troops in Iraq. And our troops, God love 'em, are there because they volunteered to be there. No one was drafted. They get paid to do a job and that job is to obey the orders of the president and those appointed over them. So if anyone thinks it's wrong to keep the troops in Iraq, then win the presidency and bring them home. The only reason you didn't hear about those same things that went on after WWII in Germany and Japan is because we didn't have "instant news" back then.
We got problems back here, as always. But that is the same rhetoric was used in vietnam and other wars. I find it humorous that while our problems are usually constant, people only bring that up when we send troops overseas, but yet are silent otherwise. After WWII, we sent troops to Germany and Japan at our bases there, when we could help our own people here. Been hearing that for years. Well, that's just the burden you have to carry when you have the greatest military might in the world. My argument is that most of the able-bodied people here won't do what it takes and make any kind of sacrifice to help themselves. This is the land of opportunity, not "will happen without you lifting a finger". If they really need a job, then why do we need to "import" illegal aliens? Why isn't our military turning away people that are eligible to serve? I've met some real doorknobs when I was in the military, so I know you don't have to be Einstein to serve. Plus, I've known about some physically-challenged people that are more productive than some of their otherwise "normal" countrymen. I'm not saying there isn't people that need help, I'm saying we're helping people that are too lazy to help themselves in some cases.
And for the argument of Israeli sanctions, that bucket doesn't hold much water. We've had sanctions on other countries, too, but the Iraqi one was different. Much of the problems with the Iraq sanctions were based on 1991 violations after the Gulf War. Basically boiled down to something similar to parole violations.
Either way, regardless if you agree with the whole mess or not, the toothpaste is out of the tube and you can't put it back in. And please, let us not let the UN provide peacekeeping forces into Iraq. Historically speaking, they're not worth much. And while we're on a worthless topic, France is worthless to the U.S., politically, and will only try and make amends when it benefits them. I could care less if we ever kiss and make up with that back-stabbing Cherac. But that's just my viewpoint.
[ 29. November 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: el ess1 ]
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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Some good points-don't agree 100%, but some is better than none. Best part of all, is that, in this country, we can agree to disagree.
Posts: 1163 | From: Rochester Hills, Mi | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: Some good points-don't agree 100%, but some is better than none. Best part of all, is that, in this country, we can agree to disagree.
I totally agree Jeff. But I for one have always and I repeat always have said the we need to solve OUR problems here forst before moving anywhere. I for one do not bring up this kind of rhetoric when problems arise elsewhere. I always bring it up period. Jobs are going overseas where they should be here. The only reason this is done is to give more money to coporations and fill the fat pockets of the higher ups. Noone complains about that but they complain when the Middleclass person wants a decent raise. Why is that? The fat cats don't need the hefty pay and bonuses they get and neither does the government have the right to take raises from federal workers and send that money overseas.
Charity begins at home period. Now lets help one another.
Posts: 2841 | From: Westland, MI | Registered: Apr 2003
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Isn't it great to see a President who respects his troops and vice-versa?
Kudos 2 Dubya...
-------------------- 1968 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe RS/SS 350 - Quasar Blue, LOADED and just happens to be my pride and joy. 2002 BMW 540i 6-speed - Jet Black, nicely optioned (Daily Driver) 2000 BMW 323i 5-speed - Titanium Silver, nicely optioned (Wifes car)
FireChicken
11 Secret Herbs & Spices
Member # 2067
posted
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: Sorry but I disagree with most staements here. Just my .02
I am not a Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. I am middle of the road but I feel we need more done here with our people. Too much is given to the Rich, The Middle Class that runs the country is shrinking everyday, the Poor even poorer. Job loses are staggering. Who is going to buy the products when the Middle Class dies out? Then the Rich will cry and cry. We cannot police the world. Keep an eye on it yes and stand up to evil yes. But sticking our nose where it doesn't belong NO !!! This is why there is so much resentment towards the U.S. in the first place.
The Middle East has been in turmoil since the beginning of the ages and the only ones that will solve it will be them and God not anyone else.
I know most of you will disagree and tell me to stick my head in my a$$ but we need to help each other right here at home.
Hate me if you must but please look out for each other.
Nobody here is going to hate anyone's opinions, dude, because you do have some valid issues. First off, regarding taxes and the rich, this phenomenon is a simple fact of math. If you compare someone who is middle class with someone who is wealthy, you find that a tax break spread over all classes does give the wealthy a huge break in overall dollars of taxes paid. HOWEVER, they also still pay more in taxes than anyone else. Allow me to explain.
Income Tax% Taxes Year $100,000 15% $1,500 1 $100,000 10% $1,000 2
You can see that a 5% tax reduction for a middle class, $100,000 income family is approximately $500.
Income Tax% Taxes Year $1,000,000 15% $150,000 1 $1,000,000 10% $100,000 2
Here, you can see an upper class 1 million doller per year income. You can also see that identical tax rates and breaks result in a savings of $50,000 reduction in taxes paid. This is usually the type of data that is used by people to justify the argument that the rich people are getting all the money from tax breaks. The problem with this data is that it is deceptive. in most cases, the actual percentage of the tax cut is much smaller for the upper class than for the lower classes (i.e. middle class may get a 5% tax break, but upper classes get only 1%). With people who have very high incomes, this still allows a very small tax percentage reduction to result in an overall dollar amount savings that seems astronomical to most of us, but in reality is very small to the people with the higher incomes. In short, the claim that rich people profit from tax cuts as a means for Bush to support the rich is unfounded. The rich will benefit from a tax cut given by ANY president, of ANY party, simply because you CAN NOT change the fundamental aspects of mathematics. Its also important to note that the discussion about overall dollar amounts for taxes should include a mention of the fact that while the rich do get the highest, overall dollar amount tax breaks, they also pay extremely high dollar amounts of taxes, higher than anyone else. JMHO.
I also want to discuss the job market and economy. Both of these are cyclic processes. They move up and down, and rely on factors that are often independent of whichever president is currently in office. Some part of the economic upturn during Clinton's presidency was due to Bush, and some of Bush's economic downturn is due to Clinton, as well as 9-11, and normal economic fluctuations. However, despite a massive downturn due to 9-11, Bush's tax cut program, a tried and true way of stimulating the economy, has begun to push unemployment down, and the economy is going up. The last 2 quarters have been on the up, and analysts expect this christmas shopping season to be better than the past few years. In short, Bush is using the tried and true tactics that are know to improve the economy, and its working. The economy has NOTHING to do with being in Iraq.
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: I'm glad that he went there for the troops. Its too bad that the troops are there in the first place, only because the leader of that country tried to kill George's daddy. There are no WMD, no proof anything existed;there were no links to 9/11-more links to our buddies the Saudias but we wouldn't dream of geeting rid of them. Now, Iraq is full of terrorists-thanks to us inviting them in. Viet Nam all over again. Either you plan to win or you don't go in. Now, $87B to rebuild what didn't need to be destroyed. Why didn't we just hire the Israelis to assinate Saddam ( who has managed to elude us, along with Ossama)-would've cost a lot less lives and money. I truly feel sorry for all of the families that have lost loved ones in this campaign. My son had to go to a funeral for one of his Marine buddies that was killed in the Gaza Strip a few weeks ago, so I do know what its like.
Jeff, with all due respect, I believe that the presence of WMD's in iraq is an irrelevant issue. That was 1 reason of many that we chose to go into iraq. the other reasons were refusals by the iraqis to work with the UN inspectors, his continued attacks on UN aircraft enforcing No-fly zones that were created after he invaded a neighboring country unprovoked, a series of war-crime bordering acts from his invasion, attempted genocide of his own people, torture of iraqi citizens... the list goes on and on. He was a modern day Adolf Hitler, and we proved in the 1930's that "containment" is not an effective means of dealing with homicidal tyrants.
On a more personal note, I happen to do business with a family of lebanese in Houston. The cleric at their mosque is an iraqi-exile, a political dissident, who had to leave or face execution. This man has had family members murdered by Hussein, put in prison, tortured, raped, etc. Consequently, they have had a prayer in their services every week for the death of Saddam, and the destruction of his regime. There are also countless organizations of iraqi immigrants who have time and again told stories of his evil, inhumane acts toward children, women, political dissidents, and opponents.
I too feel sorry for the families who have lost loved ones in the wars, but I also feel sorry for the people who lost their loved ones in the persian gulf war in 1991, those who lost their loved ones on 9-11. As they say, freedome isnt free, and I honestly believe that saddam hussein, if left in power, would have constituted some level of threat to Americans. Last but not least, Jeff, you probably remember the palestinian terrorists who took over the Achille Lauro, the italian cruise liner, and murdered an american citizen in cold blood, a handicapped man in a wheelchair, and threw him and his wheelchair over the side of the boat after they shot him. The man who organized the attack was named Abul Abbas, and he has been a fugitive from justice since the attack on the cruise liner.
Last spring, he was arrested by American troops in Baghdad, and has been there for over a decade, given asylum by our friend Hussein.
No links to terrorists?
Posts: 686 | From: Texas: Hullabaloo, Caneck! Caneck! | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Explanation accepted. But being a single person I did not benefit one iota of the tax decrease. All I benefited was a one time $300.00 return whereas families got alot more as well as the rich.
Here in Michigan the economic "upswing" has not hit as our unemployment is at 7.4 % the last I checked.
As for the economic issues I didn't say it was due to being in Iraq. I just said we should be spending the money here to benefit the people of America where we need jobs, good paying jobs in order for all to benefit. The Middle Class is shrinking extensively and soon noone from this group or the poor will be able to buy anything. Hence the economy will go into a depression possibly far worse than the 29 crash. Thats all I am trying to get across. Invest in America and its people not take jobs overseas and then ship the materials back here at the same prices when they are saying they want to save money. I don't accept that argument as more money goes into their pockets.
Posts: 2841 | From: Westland, MI | Registered: Apr 2003
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FireChicken
11 Secret Herbs & Spices
Member # 2067
posted
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: Explanation accepted. But being a single person I did not benefit one iota of the tax decrease. All I benefited was a one time $300.00 return whereas families got alot more as well as the rich.
Here in Michigan the economic "upswing" has not hit as our unemployment is at 7.4 % the last I checked.
As for the economic issues I didn't say it was due to being in Iraq. I just said we should be spending the money here to benefit the people of America where we need jobs, good paying jobs in order for all to benefit. The Middle Class is shrinking extensively and soon noone from this group or the poor will be able to buy anything. Hence the economy will go into a depression possibly far worse than the 29 crash. Thats all I am trying to get across. Invest in America and its people not take jobs overseas and then ship the materials back here at the same prices when they are saying they want to save money. I don't accept that argument as more money goes into their pockets.
I agree, we should stop outsourcing stuff to other countries. Personally, I know ford has had a lot of problems with things made in other countries, and Ive seen a lot of defective mechanical parts come out of india, china, korea, vietnam, and the middle east, for the following reasons:
1. Inexperienced materials technology results in inferior grades of alloys, excessive impurities, poor heat treatment and quenching, altered material properties other than design specification.
2. Inexperienced manufacturing technology results in poorly machined parts, sub-standard surface finishes, out-of-tolerance dimensions, and warped pieces.
3. Horrible FEA, resulting in poor engineering work.
In other words, when it comes to precise, engineered stuff, America does it best because for the most part WE developed the technology to produce the materials, WE developed the technology to work the materials into the correct form, and WE developed a lot of the enginering science that is used to design the things that are made.
Naturally, I am against Nafta and the WTO. Screw em, lets stay on top...
Posts: 686 | From: Texas: Hullabaloo, Caneck! Caneck! | Registered: Aug 2003
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We were visiting San Antonio and getting a bit of a Texas history lesson during this time. Seems in days of old commanders were in the line of fire ...nice to see "Dubya" do the same thing. Posts: 4222 | From: Winnipeg MB CA | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: I am not a Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. I am middle of the road but I feel we need more done here with our people. Too much is given to the Rich, The Middle Class that runs the country is shrinking everyday, the Poor even poorer. Job loses are staggering. Who is going to buy the products when the Middle Class dies out? Then the Rich will cry and cry. We cannot police the world. Keep an eye on it yes and stand up to evil yes. But sticking our nose where it doesn't belong NO !!! This is why there is so much resentment towards the U.S. in the first place.
Correction, you are a liberal. That is exactly the way they think. Hope I help you in figuring out your political profile.
-------------------- #22 Tom Henry Camaro Monterey Maroon Red Posts: 122 | From: Fort Carson, CO | Registered: Aug 2003
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