posted
I know that GMMG built SSs in colors not available to the regular SS buyer. I'm not talking about the non SS specials they built, I'm more curious about the Tom Henry SSs I've seen in Monterey Maroon and teal. I know that the teal car that was on their website was a Z28 they converted(I called and asked). But what about the rest of them? Did any of these cars first go through SLP before GMMG? (all colors) Or were ALL GMMG SSs built from Z28s that never went to SLP? That leads me to the question of keeping records on production numbers. How many SSs were built? Do the official numbers include GMMG cars? Just curious.
-------------------- 2002 Formula Firehawk Last one ever built 11/25/02 M6,black/ebony cloth,Hurst,TCS 1LE,Auburn,mats,deckmat,portfolio,car cover,painted wheels Posts: 115 | From: PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I believe the Tom Henry Monterey Maroon Camaro started out as either a Z28 or B4C. All of the ZL1's that GMMG made started out as B4C's. The other Berger SS and Tom Henry SS all started out like any other SS as a Z28 with the WU8 RPO code.That was the SLP upfitting to an SS.
quote:Originally posted by 2002Z4CSS: I believe the Tom Henry Monterey Maroon Camaro started out as either a Z28 or B4C. All of the ZL1's that GMMG made started out as B4C's. The other Berger SS and Tom Henry SS all started out like any other SS as a Z28 with the WU8 RPO code.That was the SLP upfitting to an SS.
So, with the exception of the odd colored ones all of the GMMG SSs first went to SLP?
-------------------- 2002 Formula Firehawk Last one ever built 11/25/02 M6,black/ebony cloth,Hurst,TCS 1LE,Auburn,mats,deckmat,portfolio,car cover,painted wheels Posts: 115 | From: PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Most of the info is correct as far as what the GMMG cars started out as. Like Greg said, The cars began life as Z28's with rpo code WU8 = SS by SLP. I will lend some info as to some exceptions from the Tom Henry Editions. When the ZL1 program was put together, the dealers were allowed to order the B4C option to get the inventory for the conversion to ZL1's. Tom ordered a few extra cars and had them converted to 380hp cars with SS emblems. Technically they are not SS models but they are GMMG cars. As to the question of how many SS's were produced?, I am not sure of the total number for "02" but the GMMG cars that began life as SS's are included in the overall count. The above mentioned converted cars will not be included in the SS total as they do not have the WU8 rpo code. Hope this is not too confusing. I know that the number cars that Tom had converted that were not SS's is approximately less than 5. Maybe Tom can shed some more light on the subject......paging Tom to the showroom, customer waiting!
Tim
-------------------- #8 Tom Henry Racing Edition Sebring Silver Hardtop Posts: 23 | From: N.E. Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
This was from Scott when I purchased my (44U) TH380SS (it has been edited slightly), notice no mention of SLP unless SLP is in Ste Therese....
.... "Your Camaro was assembled Ste Therese and then turned over to Gen Auto, the transportation company. Gen Auto placed it on a railroad car and it was shipped into the United States where it eventually was delivered to Bill Heard Chevrolet in suburban Atlanta. (This was so that GMMG Inc could upfit the vehicle)".
Based solely on the RPO code, mine started life as a Z28 (I don't know if B4C was identified in the RPO code, but I do have the body colored roof panel which was a B4C option so it's anyone’s guess) and then transferred to a TH SS (of all the 6 speed SS's produced none were 44U of the 125 6 speeds B4C's produced only 2 were 44U. I have not found any Camaro's (B4C, SS, Z28) based on standard production numbers that were 79 Mystic Teal. Though mine does not have the RPO code of an SS, it's still a Tom Henry SS, which he produced 31 of. (Kevin cleared that up for me, thanks Kevin)
Flipping open my handy "Camaro White Book" I see on page 154 under GMMG, Inc that Tom Henry produced 2, 79 Mystic Teal cars, and 2 44U Monterey Maroon cars (which corresponds to the production numbers minus the Mystic Teal paint option). For the ZL1 cars, they called the 79 code Rally Green and only produced one, and one 44U car.
Now if your not completely lost yet, (as I am) when I spoke to GMMG, that stamped trim tag we have corresponds to a file they have on each car they build so they can keep track of the upgrades installed and future upgrades (Phase II, etc.)
Man where was I going with this reply. Let me go back and re-read your post....
How many SS's were built.... 11,191 (standard production numbers) Do the official numbers include GMMG cars... I don't know.
Sorry for the long reply. I don’t feel like erasing it.
-------------------- #22 Tom Henry Camaro Monterey Maroon Red Posts: 122 | From: Fort Carson, CO | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
None of the Tom Henry cars are SS's if they didn't go to SLP first and have the RPO WU6 code on them. Their program was never an official GM program.They may have converted cars to look like an SS, but it still just be a copy. Anything they did to a car was considered strictly aftermarket. Any car they got, whether a Z28 they converted or a SS, was already counted in the GM records. They were not under any kind of GM scrutiny did not certify anything to GM about durability, warranty, crash worthiness, etc.
Posts: 1163 | From: Rochester Hills, Mi | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
These are certainly muddy waters! Thanks for the input everyone! The teal and maroon cars(4 total?) may not be official SSs, but they look great. I know it was a paint issue with the SS hoods that prevented these colors from being available on "real" SSs,but I bet they would have sold pretty well if it had been possible. These colors would have been nice to see on the SLP cars.
-------------------- 2002 Formula Firehawk Last one ever built 11/25/02 M6,black/ebony cloth,Hurst,TCS 1LE,Auburn,mats,deckmat,portfolio,car cover,painted wheels Posts: 115 | From: PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: There was no "paint issue". GM never asked for it.
Interesting. I guess I had bad info.,thanks Jeff.
-------------------- 2002 Formula Firehawk Last one ever built 11/25/02 M6,black/ebony cloth,Hurst,TCS 1LE,Auburn,mats,deckmat,portfolio,car cover,painted wheels Posts: 115 | From: PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: None of the Tom Henry cars are SS's if they didn't go to SLP first and have the RPO WU6 code on them. Their program was never an official GM program.They may have converted cars to look like an SS, but it still just be a copy. Anything they did to a car was considered strictly aftermarket. Any car they got, whether a Z28 they converted or a SS, was already counted in the GM records. They were not under any kind of GM scrutiny did not certify anything to GM about durability, warranty, crash worthiness, etc.
This is incorrect. Only a few of the TH cars were Z28s with SS badges added (monetery Maroon, Teal and a couple others maybe). Most all of the earlier cars were genuine SS.
-------------------- Building a 1963 Grand Sport Corvette Replica...
Still love Camaros. Posts: 878 | From: Hoffman Estates, IL | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: None of the Tom Henry cars are SS's if they didn't go to SLP first and have the RPO WU6 code on them. Their program was never an official GM program.They may have converted cars to look like an SS, but it still just be a copy. Anything they did to a car was considered strictly aftermarket. Any car they got, whether a Z28 they converted or a SS, was already counted in the GM records. They were not under any kind of GM scrutiny did not certify anything to GM about durability, warranty, crash worthiness, etc.
This is incorrect. Only a few of the TH cars were Z28s with SS badges added (monetery Maroon, Teal and a couple others maybe). Most all of the earlier cars were genuine SS.
Never said they weren't genuine SS's IF THEY WENT TO SLP FIRST. What I said was, any conversions they did from Z's to SS's weren't real SS's.
Posts: 1163 | From: Rochester Hills, Mi | Registered: Feb 2000
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I was asked to help clear up some of these issues and questions. Most of the GMMG cars were real SS's. I worked hard for 4 or so years at SLP to make the SS a success as did everyone there. When I started working with Berger Chevrolet, I made it clear that any cars we built were going to start out as SS's. I was not interested in trying to create an aftermarket package or new kind of Camaro. We were taking the best Camaro available and adding to it.
In the beginning, Berger and Earnhardt and Tom Henry wanted to build a custom package that would cater to their dealership specifically. The cars were called a Berger SS, Tom Henry SS and Intimidator SS. Off the top of my head, I believe all Berger SS's and Intimidator SS's were WU8 factory SS's. I had a lot of interests from our dealers to do a none SS car and build something to compete with the SS, but I always had no interest and it didn't make sense from a collectibility standpoint.
The BlackBirds we built for Carl Black Pontiac were so successful that they couldn't get the WS6 cars so they wanted to build them from Trans Ams into WS6's. I didn't have a problem with doing that because I didn't have as much of an interest in keeping the WS6 numbers pure as I did with the SS's, neither did Pontiac, as long as we did them like the factory with all the factory parts. Carl Black sold 50 cars in like 6 months which were supposed to last 1 1/2 years. They were buying cars from any Pontiac Dealer who had WS6's. I think about 8 of the BlackBirds were Trans Ams to begin with (and we built 20 more Blackbird type cars for Carl Black after we built the 50th BlackBird and called them "35 Year Anniversary Edition", basically the BlackBird package with different wheels and emblems, but the rest was pretty much the same). We weren't selling them as WS6's . . . they were now BlackBirds. The Carl Black Sales Manager wanted to do a few odd BlackBirds so they found one Teal Trans Am in 2001 and then one Maroon Trans Am in 2002. They wanted a tribute cars for each year and that is what we did.
After seeing how great they looked, I told Tom Henry that we should build one 2001 Teal Z28 into a Tom Henry SS, to be different. He agreed and we built one, mainly because it was not available from the factory that way and his cars were Tom Henry SS's, not Chevrolet SS's. We then built one 2002 Maroon Z28 (not B4C) T-Top into a Tom Henry SS. Again because they were not available from the factory. It was a tribute car as I looked at it, and we built one Teal 2001 BlackBird and Tom Henry SS, and one 2002 BlackBird and Tom Henry SS. The White book is confusing because the way the book was put together you have to look at the auto and 6-speed as one section with 32 cars and then the t-top, conv as the other section with 32 cars.
When 2002 and the HotRod Project came up with Berger Chevrolet, obviously I wanted a SS as did HotRod and Berger, but the Brand Team said NO MORE SS's Berger. The base SS's were hard to come by with the 3369 35th Anniversary SS's from Chevy. So we decided to do them all as base cars and not really as Z28, so we took the emblems off them and called them HotRod Edition Camaros. There were 11 B4C's, 11 Z28 T-tops, and 14 Z28 Conv's.
The ZL1 package was going to be special and like the HotRod cars . . . the SS's were too hard to get. I didn't want them to be called ZL1 Z28's by some people so we pushed for these cars to be B4C Police cars to be different. It took a lot of internal help to lift the B4C ban on Dealers ordering them for anything other than local law enforcement. The only way the Chevy distribution would allow it to happen, was to offer the B4Cs to any dealers to be fair and not give 12 dealers any special treatment. With one allocation week left, the order bank was opened to order B4C's and 96 cars were ordered that week. Between the 12 ZL1 dealers that were getting ZL1 cars, I think they ordered 90 of those 96 cars. All of which were built in May of 2002. Those cars were upfitted with the GM SS hood and GM SS spoiler and done that way because in 1969 Chevy built the original ZL1 with the Z28 Cowl Induction Hood and spoiler, so we built these cars with the modern day functional GM SS hood and spoiler.
The 11 extra B4C's that Berger ordered were turned into HotRod Cars. Some of the HotRod cars have had their hoods replaced with a SS hoods by the customers after they bought the cars. Tom Henry had 5 extra B4C's that we turned into Tom Henry SS's because he couldn't find any more regular SS's. He wanted to put a special badge on them to mark them as different from the other SS cars.
One last thing . . . there were about 10 GMMG cars built with the SLP 1LE package and quite a few had the SLP upgraded suspension, BFGoodrich Tires, and Auburn Diff. All of the Berger SS's were ordered with SLP mats and portfolios. The Tom Henry SS's were also sold with the SLP mats. As far as any of the special Custom painted GMMG cars that were old Camaro colors from the 60's, those cars all started out as Black cars from the factory and GMMG, Berger and Tom Henry repainted them.
I hope this is helpful and if anyone has any questions . . . please email me at gmmginc4@aol.com Also, if any questions come up here, please email me and I will get back to answer any questions you guys have . . .
Posts: 5 | From: Marietta, GA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Thank you Matt for all the info and hopefully clearing the muddy waters that seem to linger whenever there is a special production of cars. I know Tom has kept records on all of his cars as to what they started as and the content of each.
Might be a good idea to publish a historical record of the whole program. Make it available to the owners of all the GMMG cars as a reference guide and documentation of the uniqueness of these great cars. No names of owners, just a general overview of the company and all that went into the programs. Could be an addendum to the new White Book.
Just an idea, Tim
-------------------- #8 Tom Henry Racing Edition Sebring Silver Hardtop Posts: 23 | From: N.E. Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Thanks Matt for explaining how all of the non SS's that Berger built are just clone SS's and not real SS's. I think everyone understands now.
Posts: 1163 | From: Rochester Hills, Mi | Registered: Feb 2000
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-------------------- 2002 Formula Firehawk Last one ever built 11/25/02 M6,black/ebony cloth,Hurst,TCS 1LE,Auburn,mats,deckmat,portfolio,car cover,painted wheels Posts: 115 | From: PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
It was at my request that Matt joined the site to answer this question. I converse with Matt from time-to-time via e-mail, the SuperCar Registry site and also by telephone. I related to him that this was a good site and he should stop by from time-to-time here and answer questions that arise here regarding the cars he and his crew build.
Thank you Matt for addressing this issue and WELCOME to the site. Don't be a stranger ! ! ! Just like the SuperCar Registry site, there are some nice folks here that you might want to get to know plus some of the GMMG owners also frequent the site as well.
posted
Nice professional response there Jeff . . . Maybe you didn't read my whole post . . . The Berger SS Camaros were all ordered as SS's.
Posts: 5 | From: Marietta, GA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Matt Murphy: Nice professional response there Jeff . . . Maybe you didn't read my whole post . . . The Berger SS Camaros were all ordered as SS's.
What do you mean "professional" response? Like you, I don't work for SLP any more and anything I say is just my own opinion. A clone is a clone. A SS is a SS.
[ 02. February 2004, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: JeffY ]
Posts: 1163 | From: Rochester Hills, Mi | Registered: Feb 2000
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Might be a good idea to publish a historical record of the whole program. Make it available to the owners of all the GMMG cars as a reference guide and documentation of the uniqueness of these great cars. No names of owners, just a general overview of the company and all that went into the programs. Could be an addendum to the new White Book.
Just an idea, Tim
I agree with that and thanks Matt for the info.
I may have misunderstood, but Jeffy seems to have a axe or beef or something to grind?
-------------------- Tom Henry #25 Arctic White, Auto, Conv. Chris White Posts: 2 | From: Maryville, TN | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Not trying to confuse this thread's subject line, but I'm trying to determine if there are any 96-97 SS owners who have the WU8 code on their GM door sticker/manifest/Heritage Pkg. documentation. A friend of mine has WU8 on his 97's manifest. According to the Camaro White Book WU8 is a '98 code while '97 SS models had the NT7 (or N7T) code. I haveheard of a a couple of '97 SSs with the WU8 code. Anybody?
posted
I believe all SS's had the WU8 code regardless of year, with a few exceptions. 97 30th anniversary cars had the WU9 code and I believe the 02 brickyard cars had a special code. Hope this helps.
quote:Originally posted by Matt Murphy: Nice professional response there Jeff . . . Maybe you didn't read my whole post . . . The Berger SS Camaros were all ordered as SS's.
quote:Originally posted by JeffY: Thanks Matt for explaining how all of the non SS's that Berger built are just clone SS's and not real SS's. I think everyone understands now.
I'd have to say that this comment does sound rather sarcastic. What's the deal Jeffy? You upset about something?
Posts: 878 | From: Hoffman Estates, IL | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: Thanks Matt for explaining how all of the non SS's that Berger built are just clone SS's and not real SS's. I think everyone understands now.
What's the deal muddying the waters?
Matt, did a perfect job explaining how and what the GMMG cars are made from. I would feel Matt would know since he built the cars.
All I know is MY Berger SS and every one of the 100 Berger SS's are ALL real SS's - no clones EVER. . .
I know ALL Intimidators are real SS's
I know that most Tom Henry's are real SS's
I know that NONE of the Hot Rods are real SS's and were never intended to be called an SS, thus most of them have the stock Z-28 hood.
I know that NONE of the ZL-1's are SS and they have NEVER been advertised as an SS.
JeffY - Sounds like even though you don't work for SLP any more you still hold a grudge.
[ 05. February 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Xsta Z 28 ]
-------------------- My Cars: 2000 Bright Rally Red Camaro SS Convertible 2002 Electron Metallic Blue Berger SS T-Top 2004 Silver Birch Metallic Silverado 2500HD Duramax Ext. Cab. S.B. 4x4
posted
Why should he be holding a grudge is the question? I understand that Matt left SLP and started his own company, but that's no reason to get mad at someone, if he didn't do it Andy, myself and about 200 other people wouldn't have the cars that we have now.
Posts: 339 | From: Wallops Island, VA | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sounds like even though you don't work for SLP any more you still hold a grudge.
