You can clearly see that the oil flows from the pump to the outside of the oil filter element then through the filter element to the center and on to the bearings. By placing a magnet on the outside of the filter all you have done is collect metal particals that would have been trapped by the filter element any way. An oil pan drain plug magnet would be more useful because it will tap metalic particals before they enter the pump and cause wear. A pan magnet would only be useful if you could clean it every oil change or so.
-------------------- NQR Racing Artic White 97 SS Conv. Blk 84 Z28(Race Car) Posts: 376 | From: Friendswood, TX | Registered: Jun 2002
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You can clearly see that the oil flows from the pump to the outside of the oil filter element then through the filter element to the center and on to the bearings. By placing a magnet on the outside of the filter all you have done is collect metal particals that would have been trapped by the filter element any way. An oil pan drain plug magnet would be more useful because it will tap metalic particals before they enter the pump and cause wear. A pan magnet would only be useful if you could clean it every oil change or so.
My personal opinion is Fram simply makes the cheapest and poorest oil filters on the market and this is the source you have quoted.
The title of this thread should be "Oil filter magnets and why you do need them", particuliary with a Fram oil filter.
No oil filter on the market traps all the metal particles going through the paper element. The magnet helps to trap those smaller particles that would pass on through the filter.
You can clearly see that the oil flows from the pump to the outside of the oil filter element then through the filter element to the center and on to the bearings. By placing a magnet on the outside of the filter all you have done is collect metal particals that would have been trapped by the filter element any way. An oil pan drain plug magnet would be more useful because it will tap metalic particals before they enter the pump and cause wear. A pan magnet would only be useful if you could clean it every oil change or so.
My personal opinion is Fram simply makes the cheapest and poorest oil filters on the market and this is the source you have quoted.
The title of this thread should be "Oil filter magnets and why you do need them", particuliary with a Fram oil filter.
No oil filter on the market traps all the metal particles going through the paper element. The magnet helps to trap those smaller particles that would pass on through the filter.
There is no doubt in my mind that they work and a very small price to pay for that "extra" protection they provide.
I have them on all four of my vehicles and will be adding one to my boat this summer and also my John Deere 20 h.p. lawn tractor.
You obviously have not even looked at the link. There is no quote. It's simply a diagram showing the oil flow path. This is not an indorsement for Fram, I don't like there filters either. No magnet on the market traps all the metal particules going though the filter either. If the particules are small enough to go though the filter they're not likely to do any damage to the engine. With the hundred thousand mile warranties, if this was truly effective the manufacturers would have them install from the factory. I don't know of any professional race teams that use these on there oil reservoirs. Personal anecdotes are not convincing. I have friends that think putting magnets on their fuel lines improves their gas mileage. So unless you have some scientific or technical articles to back you up I will save my money for more useful items, like maybe a pyramid hat.
-------------------- NQR Racing Artic White 97 SS Conv. Blk 84 Z28(Race Car) Posts: 376 | From: Friendswood, TX | Registered: Jun 2002
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You can clearly see that the oil flows from the pump to the outside of the oil filter element then through the filter element to the center and on to the bearings. By placing a magnet on the outside of the filter all you have done is collect metal particals that would have been trapped by the filter element any way. An oil pan drain plug magnet would be more useful because it will tap metalic particals before they enter the pump and cause wear. A pan magnet would only be useful if you could clean it every oil change or so.
My personal opinion is Fram simply makes the cheapest and poorest oil filters on the market and this is the source you have quoted.
The title of this thread should be "Oil filter magnets and why you do need them", particuliary with a Fram oil filter.
No oil filter on the market traps all the metal particles going through the paper element. The magnet helps to trap those smaller particles that would pass on through the filter.
There is no doubt in my mind that they work and a very small price to pay for that "extra" protection they provide.
I have them on all four of my vehicles and will be adding one to my boat this summer and also my John Deere 20 h.p. lawn tractor.
From first linky: "Quite frankly, I am just a concerned automotive enthusiast that is tired of being toyed with by these manufacturers. In reality, I am an Electrical Engineer with no qualifications in the area of filtration analysis."
I guess he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night too.
Posts: 113 | Registered: Nov 2002
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Therefore, a magnet won't do anything for these metals. On a new engine I believe usually copper content is high in the oil and as you see copper is not magnetic. I would say the money could be better spent someplace else. As was stated before metal particles small enough to go through a filter are not large enough to do any significant damage to your engine anyway.
posted
Here we go - kinda like chicken soup - it couldn't hurt!
-------------------- Hawkeye: SSOA F98-C98
1998 SS - Black All Options - Mods Whisper Lid, K & N, Lou's Short Stick, Shift Light, Skip Shift, SLP Y, Borla, 4:10's, BMR STB, SLP SFCs, Granatelli MAF, Hypertech III, 160 Stat, Mallory Billet Pedals, Metco Aluminum LCAs,Fast Toys Ram Air Mod, Spohn Panhard Bar, BMR Torque Arm, free EGR mod,power antenna, BMR LCA brackets, Gentex Temp/Compass Auto Dim Mirror, AllMaxx Strobe and Wig Wag, BAER Eradispeed rotors,PPC Headers with Random Technology Hi Flow Cats, BMR Drive shaft Loop,FAST 78MM Throttle Body, FAST 78MM Composite Intake, Mobil 1 & lots of Zaino.
Wife & Best Friend Mary - copilot. Posts: 5558 | From: Windsor, Ontario. Canada | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Well that diagram sure answered a question for me, that being is the magnet trapping metal particles before or after filtration. The answer is BEFORE filtration. So the real benefit becomes one of how much of the metal on the side of the canister (where the magnet is located) would have actually passed through the filter element. My conclusion would be that with the use of a GOOD oil filter....not much.
Also, as has been mentioned by others it only picks up ferrous metal particles. These would primarily be from the rings, cylinders walls or cam shaft lobes and lifters. It would not pick up any bearing particles. If you are getting ferrous metal particles from the crank....you have OTHER issues.
With a high qualit filter, the metal particles that pass through should be samller than the oil film thickness. This means they should reamin suspended in the oil film where they would not cause problems. Again, if you are losing oil film thickness....you have OTHER issues.
So as Hawkeye says, they cannot hurt, but the actual benefit is much smaller than you would think if you gage it by the amount of metal on the side of the canister coming from the unfiltered oil.
BTW, I do NOT consider a Fram filter to be quality filter and I would not and have not used them...but the diagraom on the link is useful.
I notice that some one said magnets are used in hydraulic equipemnt. I can see why they would be useful for hydraulics, since I would think that oil film thickness at seals would be a lot thinner than on an automotive engines, meaning small metal particles passed by filtration could be bigger than the oil film thickness at seals.
Posts: 383 | From: Oakville, Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'll stand by my original post. $40 to $50 is a pretty insignificant amount of money to provide any level of protection for your car.
I have seen posts in the web site and others where folks have spent more and gotten less. Posts: 94 | From: Ankeny, Iowa | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
GM stands by their policy of "a part left out causes no problems and no warranty issues." It doesn't make any real difference whether any of the auto manufacturers feel it's a great idea to put magnets on the oil filters. In fact, why would they WANT to help your car last for years. Own it, wear it out, and come back and buy a new one! There's a lot of things that the manufacturers could do to make cars better, more reliable, longer lasting, etc., but all that costs cash. So it's not whether they feel magnets are a good idea or not, it's more about $$.
Assuming it costs 10 bucks or so for the factory to put it on, it adds up to additional cost per vehicle. If you put it on, say, half a million cars or so ($5 million investment), that's a substantial cost for what in return? I don't think that point alone would sell cars.
I'm in the middle of the road on this one. For one, although I've never checked them out myself, the magnets shouldn't cost $50 from what I'm hearing, because that's just way too expensive. I could get a piece of polished aluminum vent pipe, cut it, and epoxy strip magnets in it for a TON less and be just as effective.
But, on one hand, I'm all for getting crap out of your oil, so in effect, you're only making the filter that much more effective. And, you're keeping your filter elements cleaner longer, so you can go the whole filter change interval with better flow (theoretically). Acts more like a prefilter of sorts. Regular oil changes are felt to remove a lot of the contaminants before they become a problem. Based on that alone, the Mobil 1 oil analysis longevity test that was performed on an LS1 Camaro test subject shows that Mobil 1 lasted nearly twice as long as the manufacturer's oil change mileage recommendations before things started to get a bit dangerous for the engine and they finally had to change the oil. While that was only a study on one particular vehicle, it was the only real-world test I've ever seen, so I have a tendency to believe a magnet isn't necessarily needed.
The non-magnetic material is an issue that has no concern with the magnet. But those particles can cause wear. That's why a quality filter should always be used.
I personally feel that if putting a magnet on your oil filter makes you feel better or safer, then what is the price of peace-of-mind? Go for it. If you don't believe it will help, then simply don't buy one and go to the movies with the money you saved (and nowadays, you'll probably use all that money at one movie!).
No sense arguing about it though. Some people need more data in which to base their decisions than others do, and everyone's opinion should be respected here. So either you feel you need one or you don't. I don't think there needs to be any crusade about it one way or another.
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Let's see... I already piss away a lot of money by using Mobil 1 and a new filter every 3000 miles... Historically, I get at least 200,000 miles out of my small block chevy engines using regular motor oil and filter changes every 3k. Why bother? Next week, another gizmo is likely to come round and make "sense" for the price. Hoo boy. Where does it end?
Here's my analogy... this is like taking tap water and filtering it through progressively finer filters, through two UV light units and then a reverse osmosis unit. Sure, it's a lot cleaner than the tap water, but it costs a lot more and nobody is getting sick on the tap water anyway!
-------------------- '00 SS #6522 Black on Black T-Top MN6
Have You Forgotten How You Felt That Day? Never Forget 9/11/01. Posts: 184 | From: Harleysville, Pennsylvania | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by 02ZL1_97SS: I'll stand by my original post. $40 to $50 is a pretty insignificant amount of money to provide any level of protection for your car.
I have seen posts in the web site and others where folks have spent more and gotten less.
I hope my post was not mis-interpreted. I am on the fence with this one. All I was saying is the NET benefit may not be a big as you think because the magent is acting on the pre-filtered oil.
There is no doubt in my mind that the magnets will remove very small particles, it's just that they may not be a big issue with frequent oil and filter changes. Plus there is still the issue of non-ferrous metallic particles in the oil.
The other thing that I thought of is that if we are REALLY concerned about the longetivity of our engines then how we treat the engine at start up and while it is warming up wil have a much bigger impact on its life than anything else we do (including magnets).
If you start it up, drive away and beat on it while it is still coming up to operating temperature.....all the magents in the world will not let that engine live for long.
My practice is to drive at light throttle and low RPM (below 3,000 RPM) until the water temperature is up AND THE OIL PRESSURE DROPS.
Then and only then will I beat on it.
Posts: 383 | From: Oakville, Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I agree with el ess1. It does come down to your personal opinion if you want a magnet or not. Spend your money how you want. I will spend mine on other products to care for my car that will have an impact on it lasting longer. However, I always try to help people is much as I can to understand things like this in case someone who doesn't understand the concept is trying to find out if they need something or not. I have not seen any proof that a magnet will catch anything that is damaging to your engine that a good filter changed regularly won't catch. So really the benefit you are talking about is it will catch some magnetic particles that will keep them from beign caught in the element in the filter. Why would this be needed? The only reason is if you are running your filter so long that the element is plugging up on it. If that is the case then you are probably running it so long that even with the amount of particles the magnet catches it will still plug from particles that are not magnetic. If that is the case then you are doing damage to the engine whether you have a magnet or not so there is minimal or no protection there either.
Posts: 52 | From: Michigan | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
When it comes to the "LIFE BLOOD OF YOUR ENGINE" what should you do? Most of us treat our cars as a member of our family, Wouldnt you want the best for your son or daughter? I couldnt hurt.(just my .02)
I have a filter mag on all of my vehicles
-------------------- 1999 CAMARO Z-28 HUGGER ORANGE/BLACK STRIPS SLP AIR LID & DUAL-DUAL Posts: 2 | From: Urbandale,Iowa | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 99 LGND2R Z: When it comes to the "LIFE BLOOD OF YOUR ENGINE" what should you do? Most of us treat our cars as a member of our family, Wouldnt you want the best for your son or daughter? I couldnt hurt.(just my .02)
I have a filter mag on all of my vehicles
Do your sons and daughters wear knee and elbow pads and a helmet every single time they leave the house just in case they fall down. If not then is that to say you don't care for them? Of course not, same principle so that argument is not valid. Logic (or lack of) like that is exactly what can confuse people would are just trying to find out if they need something like magnets or not.
Posts: 52 | From: Michigan | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I DONT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE(WARRENTY)ON MY CAR LIKE IN DO FOR MY FAMILY, AND I GUESS I THINK OF THE MAGNET AS A LITTLE EXTRA INSURANCE,ITS ALL IN WHAT YOU WANT! TO MAGNET OR NOT TO MAGNET THATS THE QUESTION!
-------------------- 1999 CAMARO Z-28 HUGGER ORANGE/BLACK STRIPS SLP AIR LID & DUAL-DUAL Posts: 2 | From: Urbandale,Iowa | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
That is a pretty good way to look at it. Your oil filter is like health insurance. It is important and takes care of the really big damaging things and a filter magnet is that little extra like knee and elbow pads.
FireChicken
11 Secret Herbs & Spices
Member # 2067
posted
Well, basically you have to look at it this way.
Ferrous metals are those which are based on iron, and will react to magnetic fields. Cast iron and steel particles can be attracted by magnets. However, non-ferrrous metals such as copper, nickel, aluminium, brass, etc, do not have any iron in them, or else such low levels that the resulting capability for attraction to magnetic forces is negligible.
Its pretty much a given that you will find both ferrous and non-ferrous particles in an engine, and therefore it is likely very possible that some of these particles may find their way into the oil stream. Remember that constant friction between piston and piston rings, and between piston rings and cylinder walls, bearings, valve-to-head impact, etc can result in small particles being removed from the base material.
However, some of these particles are very small, some may be large. Also, the amount and size of particles generated may vary from engine to engine, even among vehicles of the same class (such as fcars). So, at any rate, unless you are measuring the oil you drain for particulate matter (which im sure most of us dont), you really dont have a way of knowing how extensive a particle problem you have, if one at all.
I will get a bit sidetracked here, since being a mechanical engineering student, i do know a bit about filtration. Paper filters will get large particles, but they will allow smaller particles beyond a certain size to pass through. This is necessary because a filter that allows zero passing, would not allow oil to pass either. And, most of us are familiar with the Blackwing/K&N idealogy of restrictive flow versus free flow. Filters have to have a certain level of flow in order to ensure that the proper amount of oil gets to the engine. If you have a backup of oil, you can not only run the risk of scrapping your engine, but also damage the oil pump as well.
So, how big is big enough? I honestly dont know. A lot of this cant be decided without some serious objective testing and research. So its probably safe to assume that some metallic particles do get through the filtration system. I do know that filters used for air stream are excellent for trapping small particulate matter. Normal automotive air filters are excellent for preventing grinding dust from getting into machines at the shop i work at, and those are particles that are of similar size to the ones we are discussing. So, at any rate, its likely that some metallic particles are getting though.
Back to where I digressed. Its very likely some metallic particles are cycling through your car's oil stream, both ferrous and non-ferrous alloys. So what can we do about it? First off, if your filter has a sizeable hole in its filter element, due either to improper manufacturing, or damage during use, that can allow some of these large particles that are normally blocked to pass through the system, in effect damaging other components along the way. The solution? Replace your fitler often, preferably every time you change your oil. This is usually standard operating procedure for most people anyway.
But what about magnets? Do they help? Maybe. Do they cost much to buy and put on your filter? How bout magnetized oil plugs, or high-power magnets that you attack to the drain pain. In all honesty, you are not looking at major expenses here. This type of stuff is relatively cheap, not to mention easy to install, maintain, and remove. So if you do put magents around the oil system, even assuming worst case scenario (you get no beneficial effect whatsoever), you still arent out that much time, money, and effort. And if you do get a benefit from it, you will probably never know for sure, but better to be safe than sorry.
My reccomendation is this: if you want to put magents on your oil system to trap particles that may or may not be there, its probably not goin to hurt anything. And you may actually help. But as long as you understand that putting magnets on you oil system is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR REGULARLY CHANGING YOUR OIL AND OIL FILTER, its probably ok.
Just my 2 cents, guys. BTW: taking fluid mechanics, mechanics of solids, introduction to circuits, and introduction to engineering experimentation all in the same semester kinda sucks.
posted
If you really cared THAT much, you would buy an insurance policy for your car's health (GMPP extended warranty or equivalent) along with the magnets. It's only money, right? Or maybe buy one of those GM crate LS1 engines to stick on the engine stand in the back of the garage just in case. Better yet, buy two F-bods. One for a spare! Where would it end? Just take care of your car the best way you know how, and as long as it's making you happy, that's all that really matters.
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by FireChicken: taking fluid mechanics, mechanics of solids, introduction to circuits, and introduction to engineering experimentation all in the same semester kinda sucks.
I wouldn't make it thru Day 1 of any of those classes!!! ....the names even scare me!
Math/engineering brains and English/social sciences brains must be of totally different constructions.... Posts: 3236 | From: Dallas, Texas | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Good reply FireChicken. What about a remote dual oil filter setup? Twice the protection? The second filter could have a smaller micron rating. Maybe a little overboard?
Posts: 641 | From: northern Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
My take on this is I change my oil and filter on a regular time 3000 miles with Mobil one and unless I hurt or blow the motor at the track or something with or without the magnet it will last say 200,000 miles. No matter what when you get to those miles a motor will not have the power and run the way it once did and I for one do not keep a car long enough for 200,000 miles anyway and if I keep one toooo say 100,000 or more I will have been into the motor for new cam rings and other goodies anyway. Short of it is I would not still be running a motor with that many miles without a rebuild to begin with and as we know nowdays about any motor with regular oil change and service will run 200,000
Posts: 737 | From: Siler City N.C. | Registered: Sep 2003
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FireChicken
11 Secret Herbs & Spices
Member # 2067
posted
quote:Originally posted by cytruffle:
quote:Originally posted by FireChicken: taking fluid mechanics, mechanics of solids, introduction to circuits, and introduction to engineering experimentation all in the same semester kinda sucks.
I wouldn't make it thru Day 1 of any of those classes!!! ....the names even scare me!
Math/engineering brains and English/social sciences brains must be of totally different constructions....
yes, the engineering/math people are crazy, while the rest of you are actually sane.
CamaroSCG: i honestly dont know about the dual stage filters. My biggest concern would be that restrictiveness of an additional filter system might cause damage to the oil pump, since you basically have to make the pump work harder to put out the same pressure and flow of oil through a more restrictive system. Using filters that are close to factory specs is probably a good idea, because going either to smaller hole or larger hole filters will have negative impacts on other parts of the car.
Posts: 686 | From: Texas: Hullabaloo, Caneck! Caneck! | Registered: Aug 2003
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