quote:Originally posted by MCKNBRD: And we all know HIS legacy...Viet Nam...
Byrdman
....so that means we have both a Democrat AND a Republican who have dragged us into pointless wars......
*putsonflamesuit*
It is some 10 years and 100,000's of lives premature to compare Iraq to Vietnam. Whether are not it is/was pointless will not be known for some time. The empirical data can be argued both ways.
Whether or not there was enough evidence to remove him proactively is an arguement for the ages. Pre 9-11, I'd say no, post 9-11 and in light of the 12 years of UN resolution violation...I personally say yes. And if the answer to act is yes, so too must be the commitment to finish the job at hand.
I say the removal of a ruthless tyrant that mamed, raped and murdered his own citizens let alone his eneimies and such a ruler that eagerly sought to leverage his freindships with our enemies was just. It is safe to presume that another version of 9-11 with his signature somehow in the mix was a matter of when, not if.
The future of the world as we know it depends on the outcome of this action. We must stay morally sound and ethically comitted to lead the world in the war on terror.
-------------------- 1968 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe RS/SS 350 - Quasar Blue, LOADED and just happens to be my pride and joy. 2002 BMW 540i 6-speed - Jet Black, nicely optioned (Daily Driver) 2000 BMW 323i 5-speed - Titanium Silver, nicely optioned (Wifes car)
posted
Here is a taker right here. I am not afraid to put in my two cents and say I will vote for Kerry especialy when you have a President who accepts sending jobs overseas and say it is good for ours. This goes to show that he doesn't care for the working man nor the poor. He is only for the Rich and well off.
1. Bush has put us into a deficit we will never come out of now. 2. We are spending a billion dollars a day in Iraq and Afghanistan. What have we accomplished. Absolutely nothing. Bin Laden and his croonies are still free and his counter part Al Musquwi or whatever his freakin name is is beheading an American plus we are making deals to let Al-Sadr basically go free while we pull back. What good is that???????? Another murderer still able to walk the streets. 3. Millions of good paying jobs going overseas to India, China, Pakistan, and whereever else while corporate executives get away with those people with poor working conditions, very low pay, no benefits, on and on and on, while they rake in the money and laugh. 4. I still say Bush and his croonies new an attack on the WTC was imminent and could possibly been avoided. 5. He is Anti-Union. 6. He blasted Clinton for not stepping up against OPEC when prices were skyrocketing back in 2000 and he is doing the samething. Sounds to me like Bush is talking out of both sides of his mouth. 7. Record deficits. 8. His taxcuts did not restart the economy. All it did was put money back into wealthy people hands so the burden becomes heavier on the working man and women.
The list is endless. Bush hasnt done a darn thing for this country except help his Rich Friends. He couidn't even run his own Oil Company which ended up keeling over but not before he cashed in hs stocks and got a healthy does of money.
What gets me is he lost running for Congress. How in the Hell did he get to be President while losing the popular vote by 500,000 votes? The electoral collage which actually gets the person elected got it for him and only after they tried to recount Florida which in turn was a disgrace with punch cards thown out that were clearly punched for Al Gore. Go Figure............Oh I forgot His Brother is Governor of that state isn't it...............sure sounds funny to me.
Now I expect to get raked over the coals here but all the Republicans in here but I put in my two cents. This cat isn't Republican nor Democrat, but I know another 4 years or Bush will really mess this country up and send Anti-American fervor over the brink. People used to look up to us and this is why they came here, now we are the laughing stock even to our own allies.
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: Here is a taker right here. I am not afraid to put in my two cents and say I will vote for Kerry especialy when you have a President who accepts sending jobs overseas and say it is good for ours. This goes to show that he doesn't care for the working man nor the poor. He is only for the Rich and well off.
1. Bush has put us into a deficit we will never come out of now. 2. We are spending a billion dollars a day in Iraq and Afghanistan. What have we accomplished. Absolutely nothing. Bin Laden and his croonies are still free and his counter part Al Musquwi or whatever his freakin name is is beheading an American plus we are making deals to let Al-Sadr basically go free while we pull back. What good is that???????? Another murderer still able to walk the streets. 3. Millions of good paying jobs going overseas to India, China, Pakistan, and whereever else while corporate executives get away with those people with poor working conditions, very low pay, no benefits, on and on and on, while they rake in the money and laugh. 4. I still say Bush and his croonies new an attack on the WTC was imminent and could possibly been avoided. 5. He is Anti-Union. 6. He blasted Clinton for not stepping up against OPEC when prices were skyrocketing back in 2000 and he is doing the samething. Sounds to me like Bush is talking out of both sides of his mouth. 7. Record deficits. 8. His taxcuts did not restart the economy. All it did was put money back into wealthy people hands so the burden becomes heavier on the working man and women.
The list is endless. Bush hasnt done a darn thing for this country except help his Rich Friends. He couidn't even run his own Oil Company which ended up keeling over but not before he cashed in hs stocks and got a healthy does of money.
What gets me is he lost running for Congress. How in the Hell did he get to be President while losing the popular vote by 500,000 votes? The electoral collage which actually gets the person elected got it for him and only after they tried to recount Florida which in turn was a disgrace with punch cards thown out that were clearly punched for Al Gore. Go Figure............Oh I forgot His Brother is Governor of that state isn't it...............sure sounds funny to me.
Now I expect to get raked over the coals here but all the Republicans in here but I put in my two cents. This cat isn't Republican nor Democrat, but I know another 4 years or Bush will really mess this country up and send Anti-American fervor over the brink. People used to look up to us and this is why they came here, now we are the laughing stock even to our own allies.
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: 8. His taxcuts did not restart the economy. All it did was put money back into wealthy people hands so the burden becomes heavier on the working man and women.
I disagree that only the wealthy made out on the tax cuts...but thats beside the point.
I don't know about you...but I never worked for a poor man. Posts: 700 | From: Fighting the Nazis of the world..... | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: 8. His taxcuts did not restart the economy. All it did was put money back into wealthy people hands so the burden becomes heavier on the working man and women.
I disagree that only the wealthy made out on the tax cuts...but thats beside the point.
I don't know about you...but I never worked for a poor man.
LOL.........I agree I have never worked for a poor man either, but I have worked for one that did go out of business.
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: 1. Bush has put us into a deficit we will never come out of now.
Puh-LEASE don't tell me you think he was the only deficit spending President? Every administration clear back to about the Korean conflict has either contributed to, or not helped any, the deficit...and don't blow sunshine up my a$$ about Slick Willie...he just stopped the RATE of GROWTH of the deficit...basically, for about 6 or 7 years, he just paid the interest...not helping much at all for such a "hero"...
quote: 2. We are spending a billion dollars a day in Iraq and Afghanistan. What have we accomplished. Absolutely nothing. Bin Laden and his croonies are still free and his counter part Al Musquwi or whatever his freakin name is is beheading an American plus we are making deals to let Al-Sadr basically go free while we pull back. What good is that???????? Another murderer still able to walk the streets.
I disagree, wholeheartedly. We have ousted the Taliban from Afghanistan, essentially removing their 'free for all' base of operations. They are running, and while they still may be able to launch an attack against us, we are no longer the soft target we were pre-9-11. I saw the Nick Berg video...its horrid. And its a CRIME. Just like ignoring millions of dead under Saddam. And now that we've found nerve agent, I guess the President was still lying, eh?
quote:3. Millions of good paying jobs going overseas to India, China, Pakistan, and whereever else while corporate executives get away with those people with poor working conditions, very low pay, no benefits, on and on and on, while they rake in the money and laugh.
I don't like this, either. But look at it from a guy's perspective that has to answer to stockholders...he's gotta cut costs, or the investors pull out. The only way to cut costs is to reduce headcount, as our processes are about as good as they can get. We are overpaid and coddled here in the US, and they aren't in Asia. I'm not agreeing with the exportation of jobs, but as long as we are a 'me' society and have to make sure our stocks go up and up and up, its going to be ugly.
quote:4. I still say Bush and his croonies new an attack on the WTC was imminent and could possibly been avoided.
Bull$hit. I firmly believe that they knew something was imminent, but you can't say that they knew that 9-11 was the day and these 4 flights were going to target these 4 buildings...you've GOT to be kidding me. I know that there will be a murder tonight...but I can't stop it.
quote:5. He is Anti-Union.
And pro-business. Unions have no place in modern business. Companies that are saddled with BS union contracts are unable to change as needed to meet the demands of the modern marketplace. Look at the trucking industry...of the top 100 25 years ago (pre de-regulation), only about 7 are still around...and only 3 of them are unionized. ALL of them were union in 1980. Economics speaks for itself.
quote:6. He blasted Clinton for not stepping up against OPEC when prices were skyrocketing back in 2000 and he is doing the samething. Sounds to me like Bush is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Again, not sure that I can defend his actions...just like you can't accuse him, because neither of us know all the facts. One fact I DO know...the tree-huggers have kept us from opening one single new refinery in the past 15 years...so even if crude were to drop to record lows, the prices wouldn't move very fast, as our demand is still high and we don't have the throughput to meet it. Once again, Economics 101.
quote:7. Record deficits.
IIRC, its less with relation to the GDP than during Viet Nam...
quote:8. His taxcuts did not restart the economy. All it did was put money back into wealthy people hands so the burden becomes heavier on the working man and women.
Face it, bums don't run the country's businesses. Nor do they pay any taxes. The burden of the taxes are paid by the top 10% of the earners in the country...they should get the majority of the cuts. You pay the most, you should get the most back.
Byrdman
-------------------- Yep, its me! Posts: 47 | From: Kannapolis, NC | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sorry ss_rs_z, but I see opportunity in your post, so I couldn't help but challenge some of the statements. Nothing personal, and I'm not going to defend Bush, but I'm going to expose the fallacies in your logic but I'm not doing it just to piss anyone off.
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: I will vote for Kerry especialy when you have a President who accepts sending jobs overseas and say it is good for ours. This goes to show that he doesn't care for the working man nor the poor.
I'm thinking it's like NAFTA?...something like this is what you're talking about? Lessee, who started that? Corporations were encouraged to do this in the 90s because of it and never stopped. So which one do you mean, Clinton or Bush?
quote:1. Bush has put us into a deficit we will never come out of now.
Slippery slope fallacy at best. The sky is falling...no logical basis for that conclusion. We came out of a major depression in the '30s...it was a lot worse than this. Deficits and surpluses are the roller coaster of the economic engine. In fact, the 4th quarter quarterly earnings statements in 2000 (before W took office) showed the economic downturn already in progress. So many people seem to forget this proven fact of our economic history. Bush "Sr." had 4th quarter quarterly earnings statements at the end of 1992 showing an upward trend, but it was too late for him by then. Look it up, I'm not blowing smoke here.
quote:2. We are spending a billion dollars a day in Iraq and Afghanistan. What have we accomplished. Absolutely nothing.
Ok, this one comes under the hasty generalization fallacy. If it's nothing, then you haven't been keeping up with current events or I've been researching the wrong war. I would agree if you claimed it didn't seem like much was being accomplished, but there's probably more going on than meets the eye. I do agree that there should be some heads rolling because of policy snafus, but we've yet to see that.
quote:3. Millions of good paying jobs going overseas to India, China, Pakistan, and whereever else while corporate executives get away with those people with poor working conditions, very low pay, no benefits, on and on and on, while they rake in the money and laugh.
That's kinda how it's always been regardless of where the work was done. As we were forced into a global economy, it started before GW, and will continue even after GW. Not sure if you make a good argument from that perspective, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
quote:4. I still say Bush and his croonies new an attack on the WTC was imminent and could possibly been avoided.
An assumption. I'd be more inclined to not discount this if some sort of proof were given. Just because no one cannot disprove this claim, however, doesn't make it true, no matter how much some people would love this to be the case.
quote:5. He is Anti-Union.
Interesting. I never heard him say that. But if it were, indeed, true, the assumption is then, that you're pro-union. That would be opposite of Bush's supposed values, so that has validity. I'm having trouble finding anything that he's done as president that was anti-union, however.
quote:6. He blasted Clinton for not stepping up against OPEC when prices were skyrocketing back in 2000 and he is doing the samething. Sounds to me like Bush is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
I never heard this one either, but assuming it is true, I guess Kerry supporters are used to the double-speak. I guess they can recognize it when they see it, at least.
quote:7. Record deficits.
Repeat. See #1. Every deficit ever recorded has been claimed as a new record. The next one will be too. Mark this on the calendar.
quote:8. His taxcuts did not restart the economy. All it did was put money back into wealthy people hands so the burden becomes heavier on the working man and women.
I must be rich. I saw an immediate increase in my paycheck with about a 2% drop in my taxes, and my tax return check was bigger than it has ever been in recent years. Can't speak for all the rich people, but I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on this based on my personal financial standpoint.
quote:What gets me is he lost running for Congress. How in the Hell did he get to be President while losing the popular vote by 500,000 votes?
You act like this is something new. Probably the same way Nixon(R) beat Kennedy(D) in the 1960 election in the popular vote, yet lost the presidential election by electorial votes. Only the last time the Supreme Court technically decided the winner.
quote:Now I expect to get raked over the coals here but all the Republicans in here but I put in my two cents. This cat isn't Republican nor Democrat, but I know another 4 years or Bush will really mess this country up and send Anti-American fervor over the brink.
I'm not going to rake YOU over the coals, just your logic. There's a lot of logical holes in your water bucket. "Another 4 years" statement is another of the slippery slope fallacies. You cannot possibly know this in advance. But, if you really do, what's the pick 4 numbers in tonight's lotto? I do applaud you in the fact you stood up and answered the question posed though. Not too many people can come up with more than one or two reasons why they'd vote for one candidate over another.
Hope you didn't feel like I was stepping on your toes, because I wasn't. I was just using your post to show how easy it is for judgements to be clouded by outside biases and fallacies. I can't persuade anyone to vote for any candidate, because it's your vote, your choice. That's why we are fortunate to have elections to debate. If this were Cuba, this thread would be very very short.
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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G. W. Bush and John Kerry somehow ended up at the same barbershop. As they sat there, each being worked on by a different barber, not a word was spoken. The barbers were even afraid to start a conversation, for fear it would turn to politics. As the barbers finished their shaves, the one who had Kerry in his chair reached for the aftershave. Kerry was quick to stop him saying, "No thanks, my wife Theresa will smell that and think I've been in a whorehouse,"
The second barber turned to Bush and said, "How about you?"
Bush replied, "Go ahead, my wife doesn’t know what the inside of a whorehouse smells like."
posted
Yep just as I suspected. Raked over the coals especially with Pro Business and Anti-Union observers Above.
All I can say is this, Businesses that say they are hard strung because of Union Contracts is Total BS. Anyone that has a sense of logic knows that everyone should be allowed a piece of the pie. Corporate Execs that make 10's of millions of dollars including stock options and bonuses and don't want to share with the working class that make up this nation and buys the goods and services so that this country can run won't have them if people can't pay for them. Sounds to me like everyone wants to go back pre 1900's where there were only two classes, RICH AND POOR. Well guess what we are heading in that direction and the RICH will be the ones crying when there isn't anyone employed to buy their goods. Well then LOOK at whats ahead for this COUNTRY. We will became a third world nation!!!!!! No EMPLOYMENT, which therefore will mean NOTHING BOUGHT. Oh I forget all my logic is Bull$it and Fallacies.
Wrong, everything written in my previous thread is complete and truthful. And from what I have seen you think I voted for slick Willie. WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a matter of fact I voted for Perot. To tell you the truth none of the candidates in 88 or 92, 96, or 2000 as far as I am concerned could have led this nation. As far as Nafta Goes..........TOTAL FAILURE !!!!!!!!
Everything you have written is complete blubberish and total Republican BS. I use to be a Republican back in 1980 but when I seen Reagan ( a former SAG president ) fire PATCO wrkers for what they believed in just proves that Anti-Union rhectoric and brainwashing was starting. Oh I also forgot to memtion that Unions also gave people the rights to decent wages, vacations, benefits, rules and rights, job safety, for ALL.
Well I guess Mr. Business Man that you don't want anyone of your workers to have these perks and that you only the the rights to them. Well then I say more power to you. Oh I forget just think of this as more fallacies from a true worker. One that has always workered overtime so that goods and services could be provided for all including yourself.
Oh I also forgot to mention that Mr. Bush wants to stop OVERTIME PAY for millions of Americans as well. Gosh you may see this as more fallcies, but its been put through already.
Oh and your comment as possibly seeing me as flip flopping also........WRONG..........Kerry has the right just like everyone to change their minds on things. Bush's education bill isn't working either, and now he wants to push through and energy bill. And hins Medicare Reform?????? More for the Rich and nothing for the rest that need it. ANd he wants to reform Social Security??????? OMG....... The elderly will really get messed up with this. Just goes to show he and other Rich Folk want it all for themselves.
I can go on and on and on...............but you will percieve them as fallcies also. So if they are you shouldn't have to worry about making comments and everyone will believe you and Mr. Bush.
Oh By the way sure we pushed the Taliban out. Okay then why are we still over there? Okay We beat Hussein............gosh now they have Al-Sadr, Al Zar Qauwi or what ever his blasted name is. We haven't beaten terrorism yet and guess what more than likely won't.
And as for 9/11...........typical response from a Republican.
So you see I knew it would come to this when a challenge was put forth. I stepped up and said what I had to say and true to form here comes all the nonsense that blasted me. Well the proof is in the pudding or should I say in my words listed above. People can believe them if they want. Its their choice. But when the Rich start attacking people about if they want to be Union and have decent wages and benefits then I stand up and fight for what I believe in. The rights of workers.
P.S. I also want to put forth that I too come from Management which means I have worked both sides of the fence. I know what goes on in the Corporate Boardroom as well as being a worker. So you can't pull nothing over my eyes.
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: Yep just as I suspected. Raked over the coals especially with Pro Business and Anti-Union observers Above.
All I can say is this, Businesses that say they are hard strung because of Union Contracts is Total BS. Anyone that has a sense of logic knows that everyone should be allowed a piece of the pie. Corporate Execs that make 10's of millions of dollars including stock options and bonuses and don't want to share with the working class that make up this nation and buys the goods and services so that this country can run won't have them if people can't pay for them. Sounds to me like everyone wants to go back pre 1900's where there were only two classes, RICH AND POOR. Well guess what we are heading in that direction and the RICH will be the ones crying when there isn't anyone employed to buy their goods. Well then LOOK at whats ahead for this COUNTRY. We will became a third world nation!!!!!! No EMPLOYMENT, which therefore will mean NOTHING BOUGHT. Oh I forget all my logic is Bull$it and Fallacies.
Wrong, everything written in my previous thread is complete and truthful. And from what I have seen you think I voted for slick Willie. WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a matter of fact I voted for Perot. To tell you the truth none of the candidates in 88 or 92, 96, or 2000 as far as I am concerned could have led this nation. As far as Nafta Goes..........TOTAL FAILURE !!!!!!!!
Everything you have written is complete blubberish and total Republican BS. I use to be a Republican back in 1980 but when I seen Reagan ( a former SAG president ) fire PATCO wrkers for what they believed in just proves that Anti-Union rhectoric and brainwashing was starting. Oh I also forgot to memtion that Unions also gave people the rights to decent wages, vacations, benefits, rules and rights, job safety, for ALL.
Well I guess Mr. Business Man that you don't want anyone of your workers to have these perks and that you only the the rights to them. Well then I say more power to you. Oh I forget just think of this as more fallacies from a true worker. One that has always workered overtime so that goods and services could be provided for all including yourself.
Oh I also forgot to mention that Mr. Bush wants to stop OVERTIME PAY for millions of Americans as well. Gosh you may see this as more fallcies, but its been put through already.
Oh and your comment as possibly seeing me as flip flopping also........WRONG..........Kerry has the right just like everyone to change their minds on things. Bush's education bill isn't working either, and now he wants to push through and energy bill. And hins Medicare Reform?????? More for the Rich and nothing for the rest that need it. ANd he wants to reform Social Security??????? OMG....... The elderly will really get messed up with this. Just goes to show he and other Rich Folk want it all for themselves.
I can go on and on and on...............but you will percieve them as fallcies also. So if they are you shouldn't have to worry about making comments and everyone will believe you and Mr. Bush.
Oh By the way sure we pushed the Taliban out. Okay then why are we still over there? Okay We beat Hussein............gosh now they have Al-Sadr, Al Zar Qauwi or what ever his blasted name is. We haven't beaten terrorism yet and guess what more than likely won't.
And as for 9/11...........typical response from a Republican.
So you see I knew it would come to this when a challenge was put forth. I stepped up and said what I had to say and true to form here comes all the nonsense that blasted me. Well the proof is in the pudding or should I say in my words listed above. People can believe them if they want. Its their choice. But when the Rich start attacking people about if they want to be Union and have decent wages and benefits then I stand up and fight for what I believe in. The rights of workers.
P.S. I also want to put forth that I too come from Management which means I have worked both sides of the fence. I know what goes on in the Corporate Boardroom as well as being a worker. So you can't pull nothing over my eyes.
I think I may have an idea as to why you will not vote for Bush.
Now can you apply that same kind of passion into why you will vote for Kerry?
-------------------- 99 Hugger Orange SS Vert SLP Build Number 1009 A4, White Top, White Leather Posts: 34 | From: Kansas City | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: Oh I forget all my logic is [deleted] Fallacies.
Not all of it, just quite a bit of it. But it's not BS, that's just your perception that it is. You went into rant mode before you really thought some of these things out. I don't mind having a well-thought out discussion with differing points of view, as long as it stays a discussion and doensn't turn into a shouting match. As you can see, I never raked you over the coals, just your logic. I have nothing personal against you or anyone else. If I did, you'd find a personal message off the board stating so. I thought we were all having a fairly civil discussion where everyone could participate and encouraged to participate. The only reason this thread hasn't got locked, IMO, is that we haven't been making this a venue of personal attack. We can agree to disagree, but I, at least, did not make it personal.
Although I lean to the right, I'm an independent thinker and don't toe the party line without question. I decide for myself. Every administration has had their flaws and their gems. In fact, if Lieberman were running, I'd have a dilemma on who to vote for. Kerry's too far to the left for me.
quote: Everything you have written is complete blubberish and total Republican BS.
Who are you talking to? Again, you claim others speak complete blubberish while proclaiming you only speak the truth. Truths are backed up with fact, otherwise they are not truths. We can discuss things like this to derive the truth. Where's your backup? Surely being in management you would remember that basic premise of root cause analysis and sound decision-making.
I'm curious as to how many overtime hours you logged last year. It was a little lean for me last year, I only had 563 overtime hours. And it's even lower this year, I've only got 216 so far this year. From one working man to another, I understand some of your frustrations with corporate America. You can't have it both ways, either corporations make money or we will probably all starve. But regardless of what you think, I wasn't attacking you. It's not what we're here for. I don't believe I share MCKNBRD's same method of trying to get a point across in this thread (there's quite a few fallacies in his logic too), so please don't group my rebuttal as raking you over the coals personally.
Since you mentioned that you'd get raked "over the coals" as you put it, then you probably knew what you were posting was "baiting" IMO. And then you got satisfaction when a rebuttal occurred so you could say "I told you so" and try to garner empathy as the "victim". I don't see it that way. You said what you perceived to be the truth, and that is a good thing. Then I questioned it, but got no factual backup to your claims. Just more rhetoric. So until you provide some substance to prove your points, my reasoning stands that you still have some logical holes in your bucket of "truths". Put some facts in there to plug the holes and you can make a valid argument as far as I'm concerned.
My advice is(take it or leave it), try not to take things so personally. I'd like to think we were having a healthy discussion with differing points of view. And regardless whether we agree or not, getting to the unbiased facts allow everyone to make up their own minds. Just because you or I say something doesn't necessarily make it true.
And appearing from your rant, no one can pull anything over your eyes because from where I'm standing based on your recent posts, it looks that's already been done to some degree.
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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posted
El Ess 1 I was not ranting at you, only at items that I find disagreeable with amongst all posts. People are stating I haven't shown facts which and I believe I have. If I mention where I got this information from then this will start another disaggreeable situation. But I will say its from a very reliable and repected source.
If you feel I am ranting then its because I do have my opinions just like everyone else in here and when something is stated then everyone should be prepared for the feedback good or bad just as I am. America is built on the first amendment which includes Freedom of Speech. As they say, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen, and you know I am still here.
Everyone has given food for thought and my posts are food for thought. I am middle of the road I do not agree with all aspects of the right or left. Both parties have good aspects and its good to listen and to have an open mind as I have.
As for me voting for Kerry, I just feel that he should be given the chance just like Bush has been given and I feel he has some good points but there are a few that I don't agree with. I am waiting to see who his running mate is going to be. But to tell you the truth I wanted Gephardt to get in but as you see from the outcome it didn't work out to be that way. But if he does happen to be Kerry's running mate I will give it alot of thought.
Now you should know where I stand and how I feel. It is not my nature to ruffle feathers but as Popeye stated and I quote: "I Y'am what I Yam."
quote:Originally posted by ss_rs_z: Oh I forget all my logic is [deleted] Fallacies.
Not all of it, just quite a bit of it. But it's not BS, that's just your perception that it is. You went into rant mode before you really thought some of these things out. I don't mind having a well-thought out discussion with differing points of view, as long as it stays a discussion and doensn't turn into a shouting match. As you can see, I never raked you over the coals, just your logic. I have nothing personal against you or anyone else. If I did, you'd find a personal message off the board stating so. I thought we were all having a fairly civil discussion where everyone could participate and encouraged to participate. The only reason this thread hasn't got locked, IMO, is that we haven't been making this a venue of personal attack. We can agree to disagree, but I, at least, did not make it personal.
Although I lean to the right, I'm an independent thinker and don't toe the party line without question. I decide for myself. Every administration has had their flaws and their gems. In fact, if Lieberman were running, I'd have a dilemma on who to vote for. Kerry's too far to the left for me.
quote: Everything you have written is complete blubberish and total Republican BS.
Who are you talking to? Again, you claim others speak complete blubberish while proclaiming you only speak the truth. Truths are backed up with fact, otherwise they are not truths. We can discuss things like this to derive the truth. Where's your backup? Surely being in management you would remember that basic premise of root cause analysis and sound decision-making.
I'm curious as to how many overtime hours you logged last year. It was a little lean for me last year, I only had 563 overtime hours. And it's even lower this year, I've only got 216 so far this year. From one working man to another, I understand some of your frustrations with corporate America. You can't have it both ways, either corporations make money or we will probably all starve. But regardless of what you think, I wasn't attacking you. It's not what we're here for. I don't believe I share MCKNBRD's same method of trying to get a point across in this thread (there's quite a few fallacies in his logic too), so please don't group my rebuttal as raking you over the coals personally.
Since you mentioned that you'd get raked "over the coals" as you put it, then you probably knew what you were posting was "baiting" IMO. And then you got satisfaction when a rebuttal occurred so you could say "I told you so" and try to garner empathy as the "victim". I don't see it that way. You said what you perceived to be the truth, and that is a good thing. Then I questioned it, but got no factual backup to your claims. Just more rhetoric. So until you provide some substance to prove your points, my reasoning stands that you still have some logical holes in your bucket of "truths". Put some facts in there to plug the holes and you can make a valid argument as far as I'm concerned.
My advice is(take it or leave it), try not to take things so personally. I'd like to think we were having a healthy discussion with differing points of view. And regardless whether we agree or not, getting to the unbiased facts allow everyone to make up their own minds. Just because you or I say something doesn't necessarily make it true.
And appearing from your rant, no one can pull anything over your eyes because from where I'm standing based on your recent posts, it looks that's already been done to some degree.
Bravo el...Bravo. You have a keen eye for the facts. I enjoy your responses very much and whole heartedly agree with you. It seems that some would suggest the government should be anti-business and pro-worker...in that scenario...who are they going to work for?
quote:Originally posted by SSHEETS: [QUOTE] It seems that some would suggest the government should be anti-business and pro-worker...in that scenario...who are they going to work for?
I think government should be more middle of the road on this issue. They should be supportive of both. I know it's not that way, but it should be, IMO. My own take is that many people in this country are sheep wanting to be led. The extremely poor turnout of the actual voting public helps suggest this is the case. I am of the strong ideological belief that the government is supposed to represent the people, not themselves. How many people have actually ever contacted their representatives or their senators (state or federal)? The reason we elect these guys is to represent our positions and the candidate's own views must closely match our own, if not exactly, or he/she doesn't get the vote. The guy/gal who wins the election a lot of times seem to forget that they're there for US, not themselves. They are not royalty, they are public servants. I've written my own reps and senators and voiced my opinions either in support or opposition based on their own positions on issues.
I simply believe if more people took a look at what our own representatives in government are doing for us, they may just start looking at voting the way the majority of their constituents would favor. But if you don't let them know, then they go with their own convictions.
Sure, most politicians may be crooked, but that's OUR fault for letting them get away with it.
This discussion has been a lot of fun for me because you can get a whole lot of different viewpoints on which to learn. We're teaching each other here as well. Like family.
Now make sure you're registered and get out and VOTE for the person you feel will do the best job for you, regardless of your political affiliation, if any! But somehow I think our friends not living in the U.S. won't be voting for either Bush or Kerry anyway... Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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Synbiotic is the word I left out above. Employer/employee relationships need to benefit both parties. To put excessive burden on either will harm both.
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ok .. I think I have read this whole thing.. and has anyone actually said why they would vote FOR Flip Flops and not why they wouldn't vote for Bush? I think the only comment I have seen close to it is "As for me voting for Kerry, I just feel that he should be given the chance just like Bush has been given and I feel he has some good points but there are a few that I don't agree with." but that is kinda just saying ahh lets vote Kerry just to see what happens.. more input!! .. this discussion is very good soo far, lots of good points..
and fyi we have these discussions on our board all the time and they are mistaken for angry bantering.. just so ya know its all in the sport of debate Posts: 272 | From: Woodstock, Georgia | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by xero: and fyi we have these discussions on our board all the time and they are mistaken for angry bantering.. just so ya know its all in the sport of debate
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Well I guess I will answer the post as started. My father who has passed away now was a Dem. I have always been Rep.and we had alot of debate on that. I have been voting every time for 40 some years and always vote a straight Rep. ticket no matter what. Could make a list longer than this thread on the harm the libs have caused in this country. Some good they did but alot more harm than good. Bush all the way unless he changes party. As for Kerry I for one think the Dems needed a much better choice than what they have, he lucked out and beat better people on the dem side in the primaries
-------------------- Willard (Mike) Scott Worldwide Camaro Club North Carolina state Rep. 2001 SS convertible with all SLP opts. Sunset Orange Neutral top Neutral leather http://community.webshots.com/user/wmss Posts: 737 | From: Siler City N.C. | Registered: Sep 2003
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Two things that have not been mentioned yet that I think should be said:
First, for those that feel the war in Iraq has not done anything for America or the world, let me remind you that Mommar Kadaffi saw America invade Iraq. And after more than 25 years of sanctions and the support of global terrorism, he rolled over like a dog fresh out of obedience school. Not one American life lost, and the media doesn't say boo about a major victory against the war on terrorism. Sad. We as Americans should all be proud, but because of the political rhetoric spread by liberal mainstream media, we are divided. After 1945, it's no wonder we can never all agree to win another war. We're doomed by the media.
Second, Kerry is very much an enemy of the Second Amendment. I cannot support anyone who wishes to impose more laws against the law abiding because of emotional anti-gun groups (including the mainstream media) spewing their rhetoric.
I consider myself middle of the road, and like many middle-of-the-roaders, I do not like Bush and Ashcroft all that much. Just when the Democrats had a shoo-in for a President, they are likely to nominate the biggest boob in the party, and everyone... even all Democrats... know it. That's why we only hear why we need to elect Kerry, because he is allegedly better than Bush, NOT because Kerry will make a good president. The Democrats screwed this up for themselves... compared Kerry, Bush has my vote. He, far and away, is the lesser of two evils with regard to our Constitution and this country.
-------------------- '00 SS #6522 Black on Black T-Top MN6
Have You Forgotten How You Felt That Day? Never Forget 9/11/01. Posts: 184 | From: Harleysville, Pennsylvania | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by el ess1: Ok, who's going to push this to over 100 posts?
Oops...that would be me. hee hee... we're a bunch of post hoars...
We can't be post whores....all these posts actully have content!
BTW- I like the point above about Libya...I never even considered that. Posts: 700 | From: Fighting the Nazis of the world..... | Registered: Jul 2002
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wow...this thread is exactly why i hate politics and dont get involved, and dont care...i'll carry on with my life nevertheless.... Posts: 2651 | From: Enola (Harrisburg Area), Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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The Libya thing baffles me...I wish we knew what went down behind the scenes, you know there is more to it than one day he wakes up, turns on CNN and says Wholly COW, I better straighten up and fly right!!
Bad news sells so good news never makes the headlines. That is why so many have a negative opinion about the US and our war on terror.
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As someone who works with (not for) different unions, I can say for a fact that the union "attitude" is dragging the American workforce down. Unions reduce hard-working Americans to mind-numb robots with low quotas, poor work ethics and "blame someone else" attitudes. Unions harbor the "we are owed something" mantra that has infested America.
You are not "owed" anything, especially a job. A company's #1 job is to make money for it's owners or investors. Simple as that. If you want more, then you should mortgage everything you own and start your own business. It's funny how we decry the people who take risks, build a company, hire employees, create a tax base and provide a service. All while some union worker is crying because he only gets $35/hour to shove some small part into a larger part. (and you wonder why jobs are going to Mexico)
I work with unions that won't allow you to lift a screwdriver to turn 4 screws that would take 30 seconds. Instead you must wait for 30 minutes for a union electrician to find his screwdriver, get a cup of coffee and finally make it over to you and unscrew some screws for you.
I have a relatives that is a union steward at her shop. As part of her contract she gets 8 hours a week for "union time". There's 8 hours a week that the company has to pay her for work that she is not doing. How many people in America right now are getting paid for 8 hours of "union time"? Who pays for that lost production? The consumers do. So while you are out on that picket line demanding this and that, YOU ARE forcing your company to look overseas.
I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but my dealings with unions have been mostly unpleasant. Unions are going the way of the horse and buggy and I wish that the workers would see this and start telling these union bosses (who are no different that corporate execs) that enough is enough.
-------------------- #M02-8812 '02 Navy Blue Metallic SS many mods.... Posts: 4 | From: Indy - Racing Capital of the World | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Cavy Dan: wow...this thread is exactly why i hate politics and dont get involved, and dont care...i'll carry on with my life nevertheless....
Funny how the ones who don't care seem to be the ones crying when they have to write out their tax checks or complain about the stupid laws that get passed. You should care and get involved. That was precisely my point about sheep wanting to be led. Nothing personal, Cavy Dan, but if you don't speak up, you'll be hypocritical to complain later.
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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Mitch, you are dead on...that being said, I used to be completely anti union, but I now wor for one of the 3 largest companies in the world. I can see how union representation was needed to keep the balance. That representaion has become so perverse though it is destroying our economy.
My brother works for the city of San Francisco. Remember last year when the long shoremen went on strike? Some of these people were making over $100,000/year for clerical work!!! They were striking for more money and less automation so as not to increase prodcutivity and therefore decrease their hours!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Mitch02SS: You are not "owed" anything, especially a job. A company's #1 job is to make money for it's owners or investors. Simple as that.
I agree no one is "owed" anything like a job, but I'm going to disagree with you about a company's #1 job. Making money for owners/investors is a priority, but it isn't the #1 priority. Money is the resultant of doing Job #1 well, and that is to attract, obtain, and retain a customer base. That is a company's #1 job. If it's not, they're doing it wrong. Everything else, good or bad, comes with how well you perform that first piece. Without the customer, even large companies will be in the tank in a short time. And they won't be able to make money for anyone.
I would agree one of the reasons someone opens their own business is to make money, but that's also why people go to work for those companies and join Unions, etc.
Unions were a good idea for their time, to correct the total BS and mistreatment that companies used to hand its employees. Enough was enough, so some rules needed to be established. Nowdays, companies thrive without unions because they treat their employees well. Those who don't treat their employees well usually have poor output/performance and a high turnover rate. This should tell them something, but many are too stupid to care or even notice. It is my belief that Unions were meant to ensure that everyone played well with each other, but I think now, for the most part, Unions have outlived their usefulness.
There are many reasons for companies to benefit from treating employees well without having to have a union to enforce fair play, but one is that the more technical jobs need the company to invest a lot in training individuals, and for the employee to have all this knowledge and then want to go somewhere else to work is not a financially sound risk that companies are willing to take very often. The good ones always seem to leave.
Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mitch02SS: You are not "owed" anything, especially a job. A company's #1 job is to make money for it's owners or investors. Simple as that.
I agree no one is "owed" anything like a job, but I'm going to disagree with you about a company's #1 job. Making money for owners/investors is a priority, but it isn't the #1 priority. Money is the resultant of doing Job #1 well, and that is to attract, obtain, and retain a customer base. That is a company's #1 job. If it's not, they're doing it wrong. Everything else, good or bad, comes with how well you perform that first piece. Without the customer, even large companies will be in the tank in a short time. And they won't be able to make money for anyone.
I would agree one of the reasons someone opens their own business is to make money, but that's also why people go to work for those companies and join Unions, etc.
Unions were a good idea for their time, to correct the total BS and mistreatment that companies used to hand its employees. Enough was enough, so some rules needed to be established. Nowdays, companies thrive without unions because they treat their employees well. Those who don't treat their employees well usually have poor output/performance and a high turnover rate. This should tell them something, but many are too stupid to care or even notice. It is my belief that Unions were meant to ensure that everyone played well with each other, but I think now, for the most part, Unions have outlived their usefulness.
There are many reasons for companies to benefit from treating employees well without having to have a union to enforce fair play, but one is that the more technical jobs need the company to invest a lot in training individuals, and for the employee to have all this knowledge and then want to go somewhere else to work is not a financially sound risk that companies are willing to take very often. The good ones always seem to leave.
I finally disagree el...kinda. Your first paragraph and disagreement with Mitch is a semantical arguement. I think you assume Mitch meant short term profit at all cost. To make money and contiune in that success requires a satisfied customer base. Qaulity, value and the like all play into this equation. I think you are both saying the same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Cavy Dan: wow...this thread is exactly why i hate politics and dont get involved, and dont care...i'll carry on with my life nevertheless....
Funny how the ones who don't care seem to be the ones crying when they have to write out their tax checks or complain about the stupid laws that get passed. You should care and get involved. That was precisely my point about sheep wanting to be led. Nothing personal, Cavy Dan, but if you don't speak up, you'll be hypocritical to complain later.
I dont care...taxes are a fact of life...you deal with it, whether you owe or not. DOH!! why am i getting into this!?!?! AHHHH!!!! Posts: 2651 | From: Enola (Harrisburg Area), Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Cavy Dan: wow...this thread is exactly why i hate politics and dont get involved, and dont care...i'll carry on with my life nevertheless....
Funny how the ones who don't care seem to be the ones crying when they have to write out their tax checks or complain about the stupid laws that get passed. You should care and get involved. That was precisely my point about sheep wanting to be led. Nothing personal, Cavy Dan, but if you don't speak up, you'll be hypocritical to complain later.
I dont care...taxes are a fact of life...you deal with it, whether you owe or not. DOH!! why am i getting into this!?!?! AHHHH!!!!
Ok manly Danly... Does the term "we the people", or "by the people for the people" mean anything to you?
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I think it takes a little "aging" to become more involved in politics. Usually when you start paying a chitload in income, property taxes is when it hits home.
Dan will get there...
-------------------- 1968 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe RS/SS 350 - Quasar Blue, LOADED and just happens to be my pride and joy. 2002 BMW 540i 6-speed - Jet Black, nicely optioned (Daily Driver) 2000 BMW 323i 5-speed - Titanium Silver, nicely optioned (Wifes car)
quote:Originally posted by Cavy Dan: I dont care...taxes are a fact of life...you deal with it, whether you owe or not. DOH!! why am i getting into this!?!?! AHHHH!!!!
You're getting into this because you WANT to. Taxes are only a fact of life because our government said so and passed laws to that effect. I'm not sure where we'd be today without mandated taxes, but if enough people voiced an opposition to it, there would be a huge turnover in Congress and we'd vote the folks in who more closely share our views, and thus repeal the income tax. Bad idea financially, but that's the cool part about elected public servants. If we're going to have to live with the laws these pinheads make, at least elect the folks who have similar goals and values. That just makes the new "dumb" laws easier to swallow.
And you say you don't care... If you didn't care at least a little teeny bit, you'd have not even responded. That shows you care a little, at least.
So, now to more important things, Dan...did you get your garage floor paint yet? Posts: 577 | From: Aiken, SC | Registered: May 2002
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Is he the best for the job? No, but I am confident he will do a better job than Kerry.
You all have very good points, but they all feel pointed in one way or another, bottom line, politics suck and all politicians are criminals, but you pick the lesser offender . .
-------------------- My Cars: 2000 Bright Rally Red Camaro SS Convertible 2002 Electron Metallic Blue Berger SS T-Top 2004 Silver Birch Metallic Silverado 2500HD Duramax Ext. Cab. S.B. 4x4
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About two years ago I read John Adams by David McCollughm (sp?)
Awesome book and a wonderful plot, and subplot and another suplot.
Long story short, Politics hasn't changed much since the Day George Washington ran for the first presidency.
The book has wonderful stories detailing the creation of our nation, the love between a husband and wife and the contancorous relatioships between our founding fathers. I highly recommend it to anyone with the slightest interest in US history.
It also tells the story of virtue...one thing that has changed in the last 200 plus years
quote:Originally posted by HOSS: Here's a straight forward question for everyone planning on voting for John Kerry in this election...
Why will you vote for John Kerry?
I will vote for John Kerry.
Why?
1. He is NOT George Dubya Bush.
2. Kerry is a decorated combat veteran (3 Purple Hearts, 1 Bronze Star, and 1 Silver Star) and has first-hand experience of what our troops are going through right now. Even thought he grew up in a privileged environment, Kerry chose to serve his country and fight along side his fellow man. He will NOT place our troops, our sons, daughters, fathers and mothers in harm’s way unless it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the security of the United States. ….Unlike Dubya, who hid behind his daddy’s skirts and used his family’s name and power to receive a much safer placement in the National Guard. Sadly, he did not fulfill his duties and cannot provide any form of evidence that he completed his obligation – in fact, he was missing for at least 18 months from his duties. Can you say AWOL? Nowadays, Dubya likes to dress up and pretend that he’s a TopGun pilot in million-dollar photo-ops (at taxpayer expense, I might add) and send real soldiers to war. Mission accomplished? Riiiiight. Sure it is. Anyone care to guess how many more years our troops will have to stay in Iraq?
3. Dubya misled the American people to justify an unjustified war. Where are the WMDs? Where is the imminent threat? Dubya, Cheney and company went out of their way and scared the HELL out of America to justify this war and it was absolutely not necessary. Sure, Saddam was an evil sonofabitch (and I’m glad he’s gone) but that was NOT the reason used to gain the support of the American people. Dubya has opened a huge can of worms that will haunt this country for years to come. And this is from the man who campaigned on the premise that he did not believe in “nation building”.
4. Osama Bin Laden. Remember him? Oh yeah, that’s right. He’s the rotten, filthy, murderous, piece of crap that was the mastermind of 9/11.
Not the Iraqis. Not Saddam. Osama Bin Laden.
Oh, silly me. I keep forgetting that Dubya and the rest of the GOP want everyone to think that the war in Iraq and the War on Terror are one and the same. Sorry, but it’s hard for me to forget that not a single Iraqi was involved in the attack of 9/11. (It never fails to astound me how incredibly f***ing stupid the average American is that they continue to believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11). Gee, I wonder if we wouldn't have already found Osama Bin Butthead if the resources (in both $$$ and manpower) hadn't been diverted to Iraq???? Never fear, I'm sure that OBB will miraculously be killed or captured just before the election so that Dubya can wrap his campaign in the flag, declare victory and ride into the sunset (or land on another carrier).
5. Kerry believes that it is better to create good jobs that stay in America. Dubya’s guy said it is good for America that jobs are being outsourced to other countries. At least 2.1 million jobs have been lost since President George W. Bush took office—the worst overall job growth rate under any president in 58 years.
6. What ever happened to fiscal responsibility? As of today, our national debt is $7,208, 319,637, 963.41. That works out to a little over $24,501.31 for every man, woman and child in the USA. It’s growing by over $1.73 billion per day. Instead of asking America to share the burden in setting our fiscal house in order, Dubya rewards the rich with huge tax cuts, leaving the middle and lower-classes to fend for themselves. The GOP’s economic motto: Leave No Millionaire Behind.
7. My own special pet peeve: Dubya is an embarrassment to America when he speaks. I swear, the man is incapable of stringing together a coherent sentence. Every time he opens his mouth, I want to puke. (It should be noted that when Kerry speaks, I merely fall asleep).
8. Are you enjoying our high gasoline prices? What do you expect when two oilmen are running the country? Their answer? Drill more. Kerry’s answer? Save more. Gee, its too bad that all those big SUVs (mine included) aren’t subject to the same standards that gave me a 400+ hp f-body that gets 28+ MPG on the highway.
9. Lastly, Kerry is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. He believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. He, like most reasonable people, supports closing the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, and will strive to fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair. As a gun-owner and enthusiast, this gun-totin' liberal has no fear that a Kerry administration will threaten my right to keep and bare arms.
My $.02.
[ 01. June 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: CAMSS ]
Posts: 83 | From: South Riding, VA | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by JeffY: At least he won't stage a fake event from the deck of it, have it turn around so he looks good and then proclaim from it that the war is over and watch a whole bunch of people get killed because somebody threatened his daddy-not a country.
You cant be that dense? GWB stated that MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS were over.. If you would have bother to stop hating for a moment and listen you would have heard him said there was still a long tough road ahead..
When Clinton sent troops to die in Somalia I guess that was ok? or in Kosovo? (funny, no UN backing on that one)..
The stated US policy since 91 (even under Clinton) was regime change in Iraq.. given the new world after 9/11 GWB has begun to clean house. He had legal justification to go into IRAQ (failer by Iraq to live up to surrender agreement AND violation of 17 resolutions).. plus the ENTIRE world believed/s he had WMD..
I never realized you were so bitter JeffY
-------------------- Had a blingin' 2000 SS
Now I have a "soon to be" blingin' LS1 powered 1969 SS
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This topic has certainly generated some very spirited debate. Now for another twist...
Any Nader fans out there? If so, please speak up.
Given Nader's record within the automotive industry, I would anticipate very few positive responses.
-------------------- 99 Hugger Orange SS Vert SLP Build Number 1009 A4, White Top, White Leather Posts: 34 | From: Kansas City | Registered: Mar 2002
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IIRC, its less with relation to the GDP than during Viet Nam...![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I do applaud you in the fact you stood up and answered the question posed though. Not too many people can come up with more than one or two reasons why they'd vote for one candidate over another. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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That shows you care a little, at least.
